"Basic" Set-up Expectations

[Russ C]

Originally Posted by wdean

I have been interested in all the responses here. It seems that most agree that the tech/shop should call you before digging into the bridge. In my case as I mentioned previously they slotted my bridge on my new D-28 in combination with lowering the saddle to lower the action as I requested which totally surprised me (slotting the bridge).

In my case I ended up doing nothing about it vis a vis the shop/tech. In my opinion the "damage" so to speak was done. If this happened to you what would you have done or asked the shop/tech to do? I am curious that maybe I should have done something different than "do nothing"?

Thanks!

I discourage you from seeing ramping as damage. It is not uncommon, many people pay to have it done and in many cases it means a neck reset will not be needed, or at least may be put off for years - which could mean one reset, not two.
If your bridge will ever split it's not where the ramping is - it'll be between the pins or more rarely at the saddle so I don't see any structural damage was done.

Sure, it'd be wise to discuss any surgery with a customer before performing it but it's quite possible that the tech saw this as a plus that s/he was trusted to perform if required - I think most people care less about such things than we've seen in this thread.
No harm in communicating your concerns but I for one don't suggest you need to feel bad about them.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by wdean

I have been interested in all the responses here. It seems that most agree that the tech/shop should call you before digging into the bridge. In my case as I mentioned previously they slotted my bridge on my new D-28 in combination with lowering the saddle to lower the action as I requested which totally surprised me (slotting the bridge).

In my case I ended up doing nothing about it vis a vis the shop/tech. In my opinion the "damage" so to speak was done. If this happened to you what would you have done or asked the shop/tech to do? I am curious that maybe I should have done something different than "do nothing"?

Thanks!

Well, this to me is a little different I guess. I still think any tech doing something irreversible should absolutely ask first. No matter what they’re doing. In my opinion, slotted bridges are an improvement over non-slotted, so assuming it was done well it would be a desirable modification (for me). Ramping the bridge because the saddle it too low is a different situation.

[jfitz81]

OP here.

Thanks to everyone for their responses. Sorry, I haven't been on the forum for a few days.

Bottom line, as others have suggested, is that yes, I am happy with the action, feel, and sound of the result. The corrected intonation lets the guitar ring better, and it sounds more resonant than it did before. That's all good.

As a few of you have pointed to--the lowering of the saddle, as I've said as well, was mainly to correct the intonation (not the neck angle). The only way to move that point of contact forward was to remove material from the saddle. Lowering was a by-product of that. I'm OK with that, and the luthier told me he may have to remove a lot of material.

The only surprise was the ramping of the bridge. Like many of you, I was very surprised that they needed to touch the bridge, and that they did it without asking. If they'd have asked (and explained why), I would have said OK. (Actually, I may have said to just make a new saddle instead.) But with the original saddle, I would have been OK with the ramps.

As a result of this thread, I called the shop and talked to a tech (not the luthier, but possibly the one who did the actual work) about whether there were neck angle concerns. He told me the work they did was very much a part of their standard process, including ramping the bridge.

So, I'll chalk this up to a live and learn moment. I wish they'd have asked, and I won't return to this luthier, but the guitar sounds and feels better than it ever has. The next time I need work done on the saddle, I'll pull it and have a new one made instead. Anyone have recommendations for a luthier in the Austin, TX, area?

[archerscreek]

Based on what I've read in multiple past threads, I would expect the following if I took in one of my guitars and asked for a basic setup:

1) I'd expect to receive the guitar back with newly acquired scratches and dents
2) I'd expect to be unhappy with the results
3) I'd expect to kick myself for not doing it myself.

[jseth]

Originally Posted by jfitz81

OP here.

Thanks to everyone for their responses. Sorry, I haven't been on the forum for a few days.

Bottom line, as others have suggested, is that yes, I am happy with the action, feel, and sound of the result. The corrected intonation lets the guitar ring better, and it sounds more resonant than it did before. That's all good.

As a few of you have pointed to--the lowering of the saddle, as I've said as well, was mainly to correct the intonation (not the neck angle). The only way to move that point of contact forward was to remove material from the saddle. Lowering was a by-product of that. I'm OK with that, and the luthier told me he may have to remove a lot of material.

The only surprise was the ramping of the bridge. Like many of you, I was very surprised that they needed to touch the bridge, and that they did it without asking. If they'd have asked (and explained why), I would have said OK. (Actually, I may have said to just make a new saddle instead.) But with the original saddle, I would have been OK with the ramps.

As a result of this thread, I called the shop and talked to a tech (not the luthier, but possibly the one who did the actual work) about whether there were neck angle concerns. He told me the work they did was very much a part of their standard process, including ramping the bridge.

So, I'll chalk this up to a live and learn moment. I wish they'd have asked, and I won't return to this luthier, but the guitar sounds and feels better than it ever has. The next time I need work done on the saddle, I'll pull it and have a new one made instead. Anyone have recommendations for a luthier in the Austin, TX, area?

Glad you are happy with the instrument and the way it plays... that IS the whole point of a set-up, after all!

I believe that a big lesson here is that YOU need to be more specific and communicate more fully with anyone who's doing work for you. While I was a bit aghast that a 2 year-old guitar would "need' the bridge ramped, it is a technique which is very common, especially among certain instruments.

There is NOT a set-up person on this planet that can read your mind, that is going to know how YOU want your guitar to play. It is INCUMBENT ON THE OWNER to be sure this knowledge is in the tech's hands... other wise, they're going to do what "they" feel is right, and that may not fit for your playing style.

I wouldn't "not return" to that shop for further assistance in the future; it sounded like they were well-known and well-regarded, in which case that reputation is well earned... of course, so is a bad rep and dissatisfied customers.

Taking your guitar to be set up without giving the tech what he needs to do what you want is a bit like taking your guitar to a good mechanic and saying "fix it", with no other information... that is a Fool's Errand, as you will never truly reap the benefits of having work done to your liking...

Funny, for years on this site, I would propound that the MOST important relationship a guitarist has (once they have THAT guitar) is the one with their luthier/technician... do all you can to connect, strengthen and nourish that relationship, as it will serve you more than well for the lifetime you are a player...

Hope this helps a bit!

play on.................................>

John Seth Sherman

[Jaden]

I completely agree with jseth’s discussions on the importance of the relationship and detailed communication with a good tech.

I don’t understand how lowering the saddle has anything to do with adjusting intonation, the latter which is a matter of shortening or lengthening the scale (forward to the nut or back toward the endpin movement). Seems like intonation could be corrected with a compensated saddle of varying degrees without any alteration of height, the latter which is critical to maintain best tonal performance.

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by jseth

Glad you are happy with the instrument and the way it plays... that IS the whole point of a set-up, after all!

I believe that a big lesson here is that YOU need to be more specific and communicate more fully with anyone who's doing work for you. While I was a bit aghast that a 2 year-old guitar would "need' the bridge ramped, it is a technique which is very common, especially among certain instruments.

There is NOT a set-up person on this planet that can read your mind, that is going to know how YOU want your guitar to play. It is INCUMBENT ON THE OWNER to be sure this knowledge is in the tech's hands... other wise, they're going to do what "they" feel is right, and that may not fit for your playing style.

I wouldn't "not return" to that shop for further assistance in the future; it sounded like they were well-known and well-regarded, in which case that reputation is well earned... of course, so is a bad rep and dissatisfied customers.

Taking your guitar to be set up without giving the tech what he needs to do what you want is a bit like taking your guitar to a good mechanic and saying "fix it", with no other information... that is a Fool's Errand, as you will never truly reap the benefits of having work done to your liking...

Funny, for years on this site, I would propound that the MOST important relationship a guitarist has (once they have THAT guitar) is the one with their luthier/technician... do all you can to connect, strengthen and nourish that relationship, as it will serve you more than well for the lifetime you are a player...

Hope this helps a bit!

play on.................................>

John Seth Sherman

I agree with all of this here. I do want to say, though, that I DID talk to the luthier about the work that he would be doing. We talked about my playing style, I talked about the thickness of the pick I used. I told him I'd rather err on the side of action being too high than too low. And he talked to me about the intonation of the high e, what that correction would target, and how he would have to modify the saddle to achieve that. So, I mean, I guess maybe I should have said, "Hey, don't cut the bridge." But I didn't really expect to need to say that. Hence my original question. But point taken. Next time, I'll be more explicit about what's going to be modified and what's not.

To answer Jaden's question (again): the saddle already was compensated, essentially in the opposite direction. Imagine flipping a right triangle. You can't add height to the short side, so it gets taken away from the tall side. Again, I should have just asked for a new saddle. But given the original one, what they did was how you would do it.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by jfitz81

I agree with all of this here. I do want to say, though, that I DID talk to the luthier about the work that he would be doing. We talked about my playing style, I talked about the thickness of the pick I used. I told him I'd rather err on the side of action being too high than too low. And he talked to me about the intonation of the high e, what that correction would target, and how he would have to modify the saddle to achieve that. So, I mean, I guess maybe I should have said, "Hey, don't cut the bridge." But I didn't really expect to need to say that. Hence my original question. But point taken. Next time, I'll be more explicit about what's going to be modified and what's not.

To answer Jaden's question (again): the saddle already was compensated, essentially in the opposite direction. Imagine flipping a right triangle. You can't add height to the short side, so it gets taken away from the tall side. Again, I should have just asked for a new saddle. But given the original one, what they did was how you would do it.

Maybe I’m missing something here, but if the intonation issue could have been solved with a different saddle, it would seem all the work you had done to the bridge was just a make work project.

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Maybe I’m missing something here, but if the intonation issue could have been solved with a different saddle, it would seem all the work you had done to the bridge was just a make work project.

I don't disagree. Which is why I asked the original question.

[redir]

High action can make the intonation off simply because you have to push the strings further to make contact with the frets. It will make the notes sound sharper. So a good set up on a guitar with high action very well may bring it back to proper intonation.

I agree with others that he should have let you know about the ramps. I just had this conversation with someone in my shop who brought in an old Harmony. It's not worth doing a neck reset on but can be saved by lowering the saddle to the point where it needs ramps.

[JayBee1404]

I understand why, if the intonation on the high ‘e’ was set at the ‘rear’ of the saddle, he had to remove material from the top in order to reach a sufficient thickness of saddle to set the intonation at the ‘front’ edge.

What I don't understand is why he didn’t simply make a new saddle with the correct intonation, thus avoiding the need to significantly reduce the height of the old saddle.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by redir

High action can make the intonation off simply because you have to push the strings further to make contact with the frets. It will make the notes sound sharper. So a good set up on a guitar with high action very well may bring it back to proper intonation.

I agree with others that he should have let you know about the ramps. I just had this conversation with someone in my shop who brought in an old Harmony. It's not worth doing a neck reset on but can be saved by lowering the saddle to the point where it needs ramps.

Thanks, redir, that makes a lot of sense. In this case, I think he had to go in the opposite direction (i.e., shortening the string). But it makes a lot of sense that he should have performed the basic set-up for playability first, and then re-checked the intonation (and maybe he did).

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

I understand why, if the intonation on the high ‘e’ was set at the ‘rear’ of the saddle, he had to remove material from the top in order to reach a sufficient thickness of saddle to set the intonation at the ‘front’ edge.

What I don't understand is why he didn’t simply make a new saddle with the correct intonation, thus avoiding the need to significantly reduce the height of the old saddle.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

I agree. When we talked before the work, he pointed out the original saddle might take a fair amount of work (because of the original compensation). He said he'd see what he could do, and if there wasn't room we could talk about getting a completely new saddle. I just did not expect "working with what was there" to include cutting into the bridge.

In other semi-related news: I've got one fine-sounding guitar. We can put this to bed.

[jseth]

Originally Posted by jfitz81

I agree with all of this here. I do want to say, though, that I DID talk to the luthier about the work that he would be doing. We talked about my playing style, I talked about the thickness of the pick I used. I told him I'd rather err on the side of action being too high than too low. And he talked to me about the intonation of the high e, what that correction would target, and how he would have to modify the saddle to achieve that. So, I mean, I guess maybe I should have said, "Hey, don't cut the bridge." But I didn't really expect to need to say that. Hence my original question. But point taken. Next time, I'll be more explicit about what's going to be modified and what's not.

To answer Jaden's question (again): the saddle already was compensated, essentially in the opposite direction. Imagine flipping a right triangle. You can't add height to the short side, so it gets taken away from the tall side. Again, I should have just asked for a new saddle. But given the original one, what they did was how you would do it.

jfitz81;

If you did what you say, then the guy was totally out of line to do any material removal from the bridge without you giving the "go-ahead". It sounds as though you actually did communicate to the fellow what you wanted. Sorry if I seemed a bit short with my attitude; in your opening thread post, your actions were not clear at all, but you did very well, given your explanation here.

You have yet to say "what brand" your guitar is... reason? I only ask because, if it's a 2 year-old Collings, then the guy should be shot! Kidding, but only just... if it's a all-solid Recording King... well, you frequently "get what you get" when you buy inexpensively, and that particular modificatio may have been the only way to go.

Again, if the guitar is under-warranty? It isn't any longer, due to this repair. I may be mistaken, but for Martin, Taylor, Gibson and the like, doing unauthorized work like this would void the warranty. If you're concerned about this, get a hold of the manufacturer and then give the shop the opportunity to make it right.

More than anything - I'm glad your guitar is playing the way you want!

[blindboyjimi]

This tech is a hack, period. It’s too bad, but move on. You are very lucky to live in Austin and that’s about as musical place as any. You’ll find another tech and next time when you hand over your guitar, you’ll point out its flaws, mark them, and tell the person, “if you need any additional information or any additional work is needed, I’m a phone call away”.

[wdean]

[QUOTE][Again, if the guitar is under-warranty? It isn't any longer, due to this repair. I may be mistaken, but for Martin, Taylor, Gibson and the like, doing unauthorized work like this would void the warranty. If you're concerned about this, get a hold of the manufacturer and then give the shop the opportunity to make it right./QUOTE]

When the tech that slotted my bridge on my new D-28 as I said before to lower the action in combo with lowering the saddle. i never thought that my life time Martin warranty went out the window? If I knew that I would have raised a ruckess with the shop/tech at the time instead of "doing nothing". Does anyone know for sure if the unauthorised slotting of the bridge voids the Martin life time warranty?

Thanks!