"Basic" Set-up Expectations

[Athens]

I'm concerned that he ramped the bridge without talking wit you first. I would be upset if a tech cut into my bridge without my consent.

[blindboyjimi]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Removing wood from the bridge without first consulting the owner is totally unacceptable. In my opinion, any change that is semi-permanent (like removing material that can’t be replaced) should be first approved by the owner. If the saddle is that low, the proper solution would have been a neck reset. I would be VERY upset if someone removed material from the bridge on any of my guitars. That is not standard practice and simply shouldn’t be done without consultation.

I’m not exactly sure what I’d do in that situation. I suppose it would depend on the value of the instrument. “Making it right” would require replacement of the bridge, which isn’t something that should be taken lightly. Ultimately, the neck should be reset. I have found that very, very few repair guys meet my standards of detail and excellence. This kind of stuff is why.

Exactly! I would not return to that technician. S/he is obviously not a luthier, but this person thinks like a tech. S/he was solving the problem with the wrong technique which was probably out of their skill set. The means don’t justify the ends here. Hopefully, that was an inexpensive guitar. In that case, it may have been that the cost of a reset ( plus the associated fret, nut and saddle work $300-$400) was way more than the guitar is worth...but that should’ve been a discussion.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Removing wood from the bridge without first consulting the owner is totally unacceptable. In my opinion, any change that is semi-permanent (like removing material that can’t be replaced) should be first approved by the owner. If the saddle is that low, the proper solution would have been a neck reset. I would be VERY upset if someone removed material from the bridge on any of my guitars. That is not standard practice and simply shouldn’t be done without consultation.

I’m not exactly sure what I’d do in that situation. I suppose it would depend on the value of the instrument. “Making it right” would require replacement of the bridge, which isn’t something that should be taken lightly. Ultimately, the neck should be reset. I have found that very, very few repair guys meet my standards of detail and excellence. This kind of stuff is why.

I agree; I think that work done is outrageous, and it seems like a way to make unsuspecting money from a customer. I feel really fortunate to have a honest guitar tech in my area who will do a basic setup (= soft action at the nut) on a new guitar close to free of charge.

[wdean]

I know your feeling exactly. After a few months with my new D-28 I took it back to the shop I bought it from and asked for a set-up and specifically asking for the action to be lowered. This shop had a tech that comes in a few days a week to work on any stuff that the shop gets in. I couldn't talk to the tech himself as he wasn't in at the time. I just expected that s/he would just lower the saddle somewhat and adjust the neck if need be.

Like the OP when i got home I noticed that the tech had slotted my bridge!! i was "shocked". I would have thought like some here have said they would have called me about it before digging into the bridge! I calmed down a bit after playing it and it sounded and played fine. Plus I thought what could I do now anyway? Get them to replace the bridge??...I figured that could end up a mess especially if the shop/tech weren't willingly going to do that. In the end I guess I'm still choked that likely my guitar has been devalued if I ever want to sell it if nothing else??

So I chaulked it up to "live and learn". Any work I now get on any on my guitars even my cheap ones i talk to the tech directly and get clear exactly what they will (or not) do! The shop that I bought my D-28 and did the work has been out of business for a few years...now I know maybe why?

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by DCCougar

Intonating doesn't lower the saddle any. It just moves the string point of contact forward or backward, not up or down.

Practically, the only way to move the breaking point forward or back is to remove material from the saddle that results in lowering the saddle. How much the saddle is lowered depends on how much the breaking point needs to be moved and on the initial profile of the saddle.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Athens

I'm concerned that he ramped the bridge without talking wit you first. I would be upset if a tech cut into my bridge without my consent.

I agree that the repair person should not have altered the bridge without first getting approval of the owner. However, many here are coming to conclusions without first knowing the details. For example, depending upon the exact circumstances, ramping the pin holes might be exactly the right thing to do and is not necessarily a sign of technical incompetence.

[vindibona1]

@jfitz81

I agree with the others that he shouldn't have done any work to the bridge without talking to you first. A new guitar shouldn't have had the action so high that a drastic saddle lowering would change the break angle to the point where a "ramping" (I've never heard of that before) would be suggested, at least before a discussion. A new 2017 model should have still been under warranty and again, a discussion would have been appropriate.

The other thing is that I think that "break angle" is sometimes over-emphasized. I had one guitar that had a little bellying and needed saddle lowering which removed a lot of break angle, but didn't interfere with the sound or play one bit. I've test "Power Pins" which sit on top of the bridge, reducing break angle to a minimum where it was almost non-existant, and again there was no negative effect that I could determine by reducing the break angle.

You didn't say which brand/model guitar you had the work done on. I know a lot of us would be interested to know.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

@jfitz81

I agree with the others that he shouldn't have done any work to the bridge without talking to you first. A new guitar shouldn't have had the action so high that a drastic saddle lowering would change the break angle to the point where a "ramping" (I've never heard of that before) would be suggested, at least before a discussion. A new 2017 model should have still been under warranty and again, a discussion would have been appropriate.

The other thing is that I think that "break angle" is sometimes over-emphasized. I had one guitar that had a little bellying and needed saddle lowering which removed a lot of break angle, but didn't interfere with the sound or play one bit. I've test "Power Pins" which sit on top of the bridge, reducing break angle to a minimum where it was almost non-existant, and again there was no negative effect that I could determine by reducing the break angle.

You didn't say which brand/model guitar you had the work done on. I know a lot of us would be interested to know.

I agree that break angle can be overemphasized somewhat. I’m of the school that believes there is a window of angle that is acceptable that abruptly crosses over to non adequate.

As for quality of tone however, height of string above the top should allow for lots of breathing room, and that’s where the improvement in performance happens.

[erhino41]

Originally Posted by Athens

I'm concerned that he ramped the bridge without talking wit you first. I would be upset if a tech cut into my bridge without my consent.

Another +1 for this. If you bought the guitar new, a reset might be warranty work, maybe not.

Depending on the guitar I might pai for a reset before I had the bridge ramped or shaved.

[colder]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

@jfitz81

I agree with the others that he shouldn't have done any work to the bridge without talking to you first. A new guitar shouldn't have had the action so high that a drastic saddle lowering would change the break angle to the point where a "ramping" (I've never heard of that before) would be suggested...

But they frequently do, even good quality guitars. They ship with saddles that are unnecessarily high so the action can be adjusted to the player's liking, and probably also to ensure it won't buzz when demoed in-store. There's really nothing abnormal about a new guitar shipping with a saddle that's much higher than an AGF member prefers them to be.

[colder]

Also I think people are confusing "bridge" and "saddle".

Making adjustment to the saddle would be fine as part of a setup. Saddles are replaceable and sanding down or shimming up the saddle would be part of a normal acoustic setup.

And in this case, the customer specifically asked the tech to address the guitar's intonation, which requires that the compensation of the saddle be changed.

Making a permanent modification to the BRIDGE, not the saddle, would be upsetting. But asking for a setup AND intonation adjustment implies that the saddle will be modified, perhaps reshaped extensively.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by colder

Also I think people are confusing "bridge" and "saddle".

Making adjustment to the saddle would be fine as part of a setup. Saddles are replaceable and sanding down or shimming up the saddle would be part of a normal acoustic setup.

And in this case, the customer specifically asked the tech to address the guitar's intonation, which requires that the compensation of the saddle be changed.

Making a permanent modification to the BRIDGE, not the saddle, would be upsetting. But asking for a setup AND intonation adjustment implies that the saddle will be modified, perhaps reshaped extensively.

I’m fairly certain the OP means the bridge was ramped and not the saddle, but it is worth clarifying. The saddle should be shaped in whatever way required to get proper action and intonation. The bridge shouldn’t be touched.

[Mike Sylvia]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I’m fairly certain the OP means the bridge was ramped and not the saddle, but it is worth clarifying. The saddle should be shaped in whatever way required to get proper action and intonation. The bridge shouldn’t be touched.

I absolutely agree 100%...

[wdean]

I have been interested in all the responses here. It seems that most agree that the tech/shop should call you before digging into the bridge. In my case as I mentioned previously they slotted my bridge on my new D-28 in combination with lowering the saddle to lower the action as I requested which totally surprised me (slotting the bridge).

In my case I ended up doing nothing about it vis a vis the shop/tech. In my opinion the "damage" so to speak was done. If this happened to you what would you have done or asked the shop/tech to do? I am curious that maybe I should have done something different than "do nothing"?

Thanks!

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by wdean

I have been interested in all the responses here. It seems that most agree that the tech/shop should call you before digging into the bridge. In my case as I mentioned previously they slotted my bridge on my new D-28 in combination with lowering the saddle to lower the action as I requested which totally surprised me (slotting the bridge).

In my case I ended up doing nothing about it vis a vis the shop/tech. In my opinion the "damage" so to speak was done. If this happened to you what would you have done or asked the shop/tech to do? I am curious that maybe I should have done something different than "do nothing"?

Thanks!

I would have done the same - nothing - except change shops next time around. In the beginning when I first went to my tech who was recommended by word of mouth - he taught me not to lower any reasonable factory saddle height - instead to work with it rather than go for lower action. The nut is at the focus of lowering the slots instead.