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  #76  
Old 06-28-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Larsis View Post
Hello guys,
So now I have two mics, that is the basic and I want to add piezzo or inside mic from my Anthem system to the mix. My question is: Do you have any tips or ides, how to mix it together? I mean microphones are solved, 2 mics, to L and R, clear stereo, but what about the piezo? Do it L 50 and R50 or? Or do it also L and R, but with lower volume?

And how these guys (or their mixing masters probably) mix songs with so many tracks and sound sources? I'm really curious, how this works.

Thank you so much!
In my personal view Since the Anthem pickup is a mono signal. I would record it to a mono track and pan it straight up the center

Well as far as mixing multi track recordings and in only a very general sense often the goal is to have a cohesive mix (that sounds and feels like it is all the instruments are playing live in the same room same time) BUT have enough distinction between the individual instruments so that they do not get lost in a muddy mess of similar mid range frequencies and can be heard individually in the mix. This is (again generally speaking ) often done in two ways.

First consider that the sound field is 3 dimensional, not only stereo Left and Right being 2 D, but also front to back thus 3D

#1 limit the number of stereo tracks in general, for example record the rhythm acoustic guitar track in stereo and pan hard left and right, then record additional tracks in mono and spread the panning of those tracks out to specific positions left to right. i.e. lead guitar 45 L and piano 45 R percussion instrument 25 L and tamborine 25 R etc.


# 2 sculpt the sound of the various instruments to allow space for individual frequencies to be more and less predominant , by using subtractive EQ ( cutting by a few db) on slightly different frequencies for each instrument. Also compression can help move specific featured instruments like say vocal and or lead guitar riffs , to the front of the sound field, where supporting instruments can be a bit further back in the sound field .
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  #77  
Old 06-28-2019, 09:39 AM
Larsis Larsis is offline
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Thank you guys for your tips. Well I have to record one track, so the signal goes from 2 mic and 1 piezzo and I need to blend it together. Maybe there is no great magic here and I just have to figure out by myself and by my own ears. I'll try mix the signal from the mics and then from the piezo separately and then blend it together.
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  #78  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:21 PM
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Thank you guys for your tips. Well I have to record one track, so the signal goes from 2 mic and 1 piezzo and I need to blend it together. Maybe there is no great magic here and I just have to figure out by myself and by my own ears. I'll try mix the signal from the mics and then from the piezo separately and then blend it together.
I guess I am confused why you have to record to one track. Do you not have at last 2 mic inputs and one instrument in, on you recording device ?
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  #79  
Old 06-28-2019, 12:49 PM
Larsis Larsis is offline
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I guess I am confused why you have to record to one track. Do you not have at last 2 mic inputs and one instrument in, on you recording device ?
I am sorry, what I meant was record one piece of music. So the signal from 2 mics and one piezo at the same time
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  #80  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:48 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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I guess I am confused why you have to record to one track. Do you not have at last 2 mic inputs and one instrument in, on you recording device ?
He means he's setting up two mics and also using the signal from his pickup. Then he hits record and plays.

Not sure why he wants to do that. It would have to be an incredibly good pickup system for me to choose it over a properly mic-ed track. But I tried doing the same thing when I started. At the time I figured the more sources I had, the more likely I was to get a good recording. Never worked out that way but I did it for a while.

Gives me an idea though... A Flock of Seagulls cover band that plays their guitars using only piezo pickups. I'd call it "Flock of Ducks."
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  #81  
Old 06-29-2019, 02:09 AM
Larsis Larsis is offline
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Guys, I don't think, you get me right. Now I do all my records with 2 matcher pair mics, but I also have the L.R. Baggs Anthem pick-up system on my guitar, which contains internal mic+piezo.

For example, look at (or hear) these two videos,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2DghZESxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNPCI8y9avc

maybe I am wrong, but I clearly hear more than one source of signal. I belive, their whole track contains signals from microphone, piezo and magnetic pick up. And I am just curious, how they worked with it in mix, how they pan it etc.
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  #82  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larsis View Post
Guys, I don't think, you get me right. Now I do all my records with 2 matcher pair mics, but I also have the L.R. Baggs Anthem pick-up system on my guitar, which contains internal mic+piezo.

For example, look at (or hear) these two videos,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2DghZESxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNPCI8y9avc

maybe I am wrong, but I clearly hear more than one source of signal. I belive, their whole track contains signals from microphone, piezo and magnetic pick up. And I am just curious, how they worked with it in mix, how they pan it etc.
Well first we seem to be having a "terminology" communication issue .
So from top.
While the term "track" is commonly, widely and ambiguously used , to describe an entire session or project or multi track song recording. In recording parlance a "track" is actually a single individual "channel" within a recording and is either mono or stereo.

So what it sounds like you are describing you want to do and what is happening in the videos are "multi track" recordings.

Specifically either 3 mono tracks, or 1 stereo and 1 mono track. The pair of Mics either on a single stereo track or on two different mono tracks, and the Pickup on a single mono track (or at least that is how it probably should be recorded and is likely what is going on in the videos') . Because then as I describe in my post #76 you can then pan the mic track/s , hard left and right and pan the pickup track up the middle then mix to taste. As Jim pointed out, because you will likely get a different tonal sound from a pickup as opposed to mic/s , you want to able want to EQ the pick up track separately from the mic track/s As per post number 76

You might want to post a screenshot of your entire session.

Here is what my sessions would look to accomplish what you are describing, If you have any questions about the screenshots, ( labeling, routing, etc.) please ask.

3 mono tracks


1 Stereo and 1 mono tracks
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  #83  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:44 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
He means he's setting up two mics and also using the signal from his pickup. Then he hits record and plays.

Not sure why he wants to do that. It would have to be an incredibly good pickup system...
You might find this interesting. A very percussive fingerstyle player. There was a single mic about 2 feet out to capture both the Taylor guitar and vocal. I also ran a cable from the not-great piezo under the door and into an old Fender tweed Deluxe (all the way up) and snuck a little of it into the blend.

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  #84  
Old 06-29-2019, 09:58 AM
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You might find this interesting. A very percussive fingerstyle player. There was a single mic about 2 feet out to capture both the Taylor guitar and vocal. I also ran a cable from the not-great piezo under the door and into an old Fender tweed Deluxe (all the way up) and snuck a little of it into the blend.

Very creative well done ...........

Sometimes piezo "just works", was used throughout this entire album (do they still call'em that ?)

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  #85  
Old 06-29-2019, 10:11 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Sometimes piezo "just works..."
Seems to work out fine for Rodrigo y Gabriela. In Rodrigo's case, with a pick.
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  #86  
Old 06-29-2019, 11:01 AM
keith.rogers keith.rogers is offline
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Well, it depends on the pickup system, and often what a performer uses live and the sound they are expecting to get in the finished recorded, i.e., if they use an amped/pickup system as at least part of their live performance, it's going to be hard to replicate that in a recording with only mics on the guitar. (I'm thinking folks like Tommy Emmanuel, Doyle Dykes, et al - not acoustic players that have their guitar also plugged in during live performances because...)

Any time you get all those extra tracks of the same performance, the possibility of phase issues creeps in - even tiny ones can create comb filtering so always include a mono mix test or A/B setup to test.

Also, I keep the panning not too wide when I've got more than a single mic on a guitar and not mixing it down to a mono track. A wide spread on a single point instrument get a little unnatural in headphones for me. And, if you have something other than the same mics at the extents, there's always a chance that you'll get some artifact, e.g. one side capturing/producing a markedly different frequency curve than the other, and then you'll have a sense that the instrument location wanders as the piece goes up and down the fretboard. Now that really bothers me... My $.02, anyway.
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  #87  
Old 06-29-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larsis View Post
Guys, I don't think, you get me right. Now I do all my records with 2 matcher pair mics, but I also have the L.R. Baggs Anthem pick-up system on my guitar, which contains internal mic+piezo.

For example, look at (or hear) these two videos,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU2DghZESxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNPCI8y9avc

maybe I am wrong, but I clearly hear more than one source of signal. I belive, their whole track contains signals from microphone, piezo and magnetic pick up. And I am just curious, how they worked with it in mix, how they pan it etc.
There's no set way to do this. You have multiple sounds for one instrument, so you mix according to what sounds good to you. What I'd probably try to start with is:

1) pan the mics hard left and right, stereo
2) cut the highs from the pickup, maybe add some bass
3) center the pickup in the middle
4) adjust levels to taste

But there are all kinds of options. I recall reading Tommy Emmanual saying that on one of his CDs, they recorded mics+pickup and used the pickup to send to the reverb, keeping the mics dry and the pickup itself out of the mix. Why? No idea, but apparently they liked the sound.

Michael Hedges apparently liked (this is live) to use a magnetic pickup with the highs rolled off and a stereo chorus on it.

I don't recommend this, but one mic and the pickup, each panned hard to each side sounds huge (tho not natural).

Antoine Dufour, whose video you posted, has a set of 3 videos on how he records, tho they are light on the specifics of what you are asking. You do get a glimpse of the many plugins he uses, including a "MaxBass" plugin, if I recall, which I'd guess is applied to his pickup to get that big bottom end.

I rarely use a pickup, but I do almost always record with more than one pair of mics, and again, the its the same story - blend to taste. I can pick one or the other pairs to see which sounds best, I can use them both, I can adjust the relative levels of each, I can add reverb to one and not the other, I can pan them differently, I can adjust the relative levels - more of one vs the other, and so on. While trying any of this, I just listen and try to figure out if it sounds good.
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  #88  
Old 06-30-2019, 06:55 AM
Larsis Larsis is offline
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they recorded mics+pickup and used the pickup to send to the reverb, keeping the mics dry and the pickup itself out of the mix.
That's actually very good idea, especially for percussions. I'll definitely take a look on Antoine Dufour's videos about his recordings, I had no idea, he did such a thing.

Anyway, thank you guys, this is excatly what I was looking for, some tips and tricks, how to do it. I'll try these things on my next song, which I am going to post here of course
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