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  #16  
Old 02-04-2017, 09:43 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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I have tried different mics, preamps, strings, guitars, settings, position, etc., but I keep getting this annoying metallic jangle when recording rhythm guitar. Anyone ever have this problem? It's in the higher frequency range. It is also a sound I don't hear coming from my guitars in real time.

Rick
Hi Rick,
A totally different idea, but do you happen to suffer from tinnitus or hyperacousis? If you're of an age where these things start to manifest themselves don't overlook the possibility.

Tinnitus is usually fairly apparent, but hyperacousis is the new kid on the block, with far fewer people aware of it. One of the manifestations can be a sensitivity to specific sounds, and the nature can vary widely. It's a possibility that you detect a very specific block of frequencies as being louder, or even edgy to the point of being annoying. The offending noise can range from someone in the next room doing dishes to more pointed material such as specific cymbals or even specific notes on a piano.

In your case you may not even be aware of it until it comes back to your ear in a very specific direction and volume.

Since you haven't got any suggestions that seem to fit I thought I'd mention it. I have both, so I'm totally familiar.
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  #17  
Old 02-05-2017, 02:48 AM
midwinter midwinter is offline
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I use light strings, med pick, action is slightly lower, neck is not back-bowed. I appreciate the input.


I really do think that's just what that guitar sounds like.


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  #18  
Old 02-05-2017, 03:47 AM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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We can just agree to disagree then. I've been doing this for a long time and my EQs are about as good as they come (Millennia and Pultec) but I still prefer EQ acoustic as little as possible. Granted, I'll still end up EQing most tracks to some degree, but it's always to fit the context of a mix, staying out of the way of a vocal, etc. If there's a metallic edge, I address that with mic placement or mic choice (though that may not be an option for the TS). Since he's the player, he can even address it with pick, strings, technique. So many better options than EQ.

I like to encourage beginners not to reach for EQ as a way to fix the source. Fix the source signal, then use EQ to craft your mix. That should be the goal at least.
Okay we'll disagree This is the last I say in this subject. Like you, I have been doing this for extreme long time, and, I also have the real deal Pultecs, but to me microphones couple with acoustic guitars, like electric guitars couple with amps. Some for the better, some for the worse, and if he has a microphone that doesn't work with that guitar, he can place it all he wants and he still will have some off putting tones that need correcting. Yes placement will help, but metallic tones rarely come from placement. Thin-ness, loss of distinction, and mud, oh yeah, that's got placement all over it. Ask midwinter if he can place a Rode M5 on his acoustic to avoid the overly bright tone. I guarantee you, I know his answer to that question. We do agree that EQ is best when used to sculpt a part into the mix. You got alot of business going down on the low end? High pass that guitar until it sits in a pocket. You got a singer that is in the acoustic guitar midrange? Scoop the guitar and let the singer sit in the pocket. But, if you got a ring on top that emanated from a Chinese capsule, find it, fix it. You want to learn about placement, start with a decent mic, and that will give you a fighting chance. As a matter of fact when I first started buying better microphones I found that I got to recording alot faster, and spent way less time trying to find that position that would get me a useable take. The Violet Amethyst is such a forgiving microphone all you need to is get it into the same area code of the instrument and you're getting a take that's going to require very little EQ. Another good flat mic that I find very easy to place is the Neumann U89. If people are going to seriously record their instrument, it's best to find a complimentary mic for it, choosing it with as much concern as you would a new guitar. Placement is important, no doubt, and the developing of a critical will pay huge dividends, but sometimes if you've got an overly dark / bright instrument, or microphone with those qualities, better learn how to use an EQ.
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  #19  
Old 02-05-2017, 11:14 AM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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Originally Posted by midwinter View Post
I really do think that's just what that guitar sounds like.


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All my guitars have that same sound when recorded.
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  #20  
Old 02-05-2017, 12:11 PM
midwinter midwinter is offline
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All my guitars have that same sound when recorded.
If that's the case, then it really seems like what you're hearing (and what I'm hearing) is the sound of an acoustic guitar being strummed. Like I said, I'm not hearing anything in the sound clip you provided.

As I also said upthread, I wonder if you have ever listened to someone play one of your guitars with your pick. Do you hear the sound then? We never really "hear" our guitars while we're playing them because our heads are on top of the body and not in front. I have a friend who buys custom Taylor lefty guitars, and he'll sometimes ask me to come over and play them for him for a little while just so we can hear what they sound like.

I once recorded a bandmate—who has 30+ years of gigging experience but zero recording experience—playing his perfectly fine Taylor 3-series. He couldn't believe that it sounded like it did, and I just said "I don't think you've ever heard what you actually sound like when you play."
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  #21  
Old 02-05-2017, 01:37 PM
jomaynor jomaynor is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I disagree here. Just yesterday Midwinter and I put up more than a few microphones on his acoustic guitar and placed each where we thought the microphone and guitar sounded best in my pretty good sounding room. I record a TON of different acoustic guitars so I know the room and I know the mics that we using (at least the ones that I own).

The object of our little shootout was to find a microphone that would compliment his guitar, his current microphone collection, and his recording situation. We were testing under $1000 (ballpark) microphones against the mics that he currently owns.

The microphones were a Neumann TLM103, Violet Amethyst Vintage, Blue Blueberry, CAD E200 (in both cardoid and omni settings), Neumann KM184, Octava MC012, Rode M5, Little Blondies, Cascade Fathead II, Shure SM57.

I have many good EQ plugs with real-time spectral analysis, so along with our ears, we had a good spectral representation of what was going on. I can say without reservation most of all the recorded takes could have benefited from a bit of subtractive EQ, yes sometimes you can take what's special away from a track, but knowing what to listen for in the track comes with experience. You can position till the cows come home, but if the guitar or the room has certain quirks, you still need to address them at the EQ end. And in the case of the OP, if he feels the guitar has a metallic edge that he can't live with, find it, and remove it as surgically as possible.
Valid points you make.

Microphones don't "hear" sound like our ears do, so the notion of unaltered signal chain = more faithful reproduction of source is erroneous, if faithful reproduction is indeed what one is trying to achieve.

My own personal ideal for a strummed rhythm guitar is a D-18 with subtractive EQ and moderate compression - the enhanced presence sounds good, and it makes an effective framework for the vocal and the other instrumentation.
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2017, 07:46 PM
Bowie Bowie is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
Yes placement will help, but metallic tones rarely come from placement.

But, if you got a ring on top that emanated from a Chinese capsule, find it, fix it.

You want to learn about placement, start with a decent mic, and that will give you a fighting chance.
The Violet Amethyst is such a forgiving microphone all you need to is get it into the same area code of the instrument and you're getting a take that's going to require very little EQ..
Placement can often exacerbate metallic tones in an acoustic. For instance; if they are from the pick attack and you're aimed right as the strike zone. Placement is one of those things you should always investigate. I'm not sure what's so disagreeable about that. That's what audio engineers have been doing for decades.

Regarding the rest, personally, if I had an intern in my place and wanted to teach them about placement, I would not let them touch the Schoeps or anything effortless like that, I'd make them use mics that are not as easy and really teach them about placement. That's just personal opinion though. I'm not discrediting your perspective.

Anyhow, intentional or not, this comes across as a weeing contest and I get no joy in that sort of thing. I'm very comfortable with my gear, job, and experience and we'll leave it at that. I'm not even trying to tell you that you are wrong. I'm just sharing a more traditional perspective with the OP so this doesn't need to be competitive.

For those who reading this who do not understand why I'm encouraging the OP to avoid EQ, it's because it causes distortion and changing something about the source (guitar, playing, mic, placement, room, etc) is almost always sonically preferable to using EQ. For instance, as you take away a metallic sound, you also kill pleasant harmonics that are important to certain notes. See if you can reduce that metallic sound while preserving the full spectrum of the instrument. That's all. I'm not saying it's a sin to use EQ. I use a lot of it and love my EQs. I even build EQs. I'm simply saying that it's a mistake to reach for it first, before trying better methods.

Last edited by Bowie; 02-05-2017 at 08:32 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-05-2017, 07:57 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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I will experiment some more with mic placement to see what can be done to improve my recorded sound.
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  #24  
Old 02-05-2017, 10:26 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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Well, after some more critical listening I realize that the guitar does produce the sound I was hearing, not just in the recording. So, okay. I did some experimenting with different mic placements and got some really nice results. Yes, the metallic sound is still there, but it doesn't bother me as much any more. I guess I was being too critical about what I was hearing. I was also upset at the thought that it might be something in my recording signal chain contributing to it, but now I know that is not the case. For now, I can accept what I hear as just the way the guitars sound when strummed.
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2017, 01:02 AM
jomaynor jomaynor is offline
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Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd View Post
Well, after some more critical listening I realize that the guitar does produce the sound I was hearing, not just in the recording. So, okay. I did some experimenting with different mic placements and got some really nice results. Yes, the metallic sound is still there, but it doesn't bother me as much any more. I guess I was being too critical about what I was hearing. I was also upset at the thought that it might be something in my recording signal chain contributing to it, but now I know that is not the case. For now, I can accept what I hear as just the way the guitars sound when strummed.
Why not notch out the offending frequency?
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  #26  
Old 02-06-2017, 09:21 AM
midwinter midwinter is offline
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Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd View Post
Well, after some more critical listening I realize that the guitar does produce the sound I was hearing, not just in the recording. So, okay. I did some experimenting with different mic placements and got some really nice results. Yes, the metallic sound is still there, but it doesn't bother me as much any more. I guess I was being too critical about what I was hearing. I was also upset at the thought that it might be something in my recording signal chain contributing to it, but now I know that is not the case. For now, I can accept what I hear as just the way the guitars sound when strummed.
I spent some time thinking about the implications of this.

1. It is possible that it's just the sound of a strummed acoustic.
2. It is possible that it's just the sound of YOU strumming YOUR acoustic
3. It is possible that it's the room/mic/placement/etc.
4. It is possible that your guitar just doesn't record well (although the clip you provided doesn't seem to bear that out).

Have you ever had someone come over and strum both your guitars and theirs? Might be useful to do a shootout to see what records well and what doesn't.
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  #27  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:49 AM
Truckjohn Truckjohn is offline
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First thought. Strings. Do you run mediums or lights. Lighter strings tend to produce more noise/jangle where medium strings tend to produce more standard guitar sound.

Second...
I know you have the stable of guitars you have and all....

Any chance you could do a test of the same recording with a *good* J-45? Maybe borrow one from a friend...

One of the neat things about a really good J-45 is that they don't tend to make as much in the way of jangly overtones unless you play them softly. It's got to do with the way the bracing is designed. These tend to be popular with singer/songwriters because they just sound like "guitar".. Especially with medium strings... Think classic James Taylor....

I would expect your Taylor's to produce more jangly overtones, and especially the D-41.... Which I would guess would make a lot more chimey overtones.

Thanks

Last edited by Truckjohn; 02-06-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:54 AM
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KevWind KevWind is online now
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Originally Posted by Bowie View Post
I'm not saying it's a sin to use EQ. I use a lot of it and love my EQs. I even build EQs. I'm simply saying that it's a mistake to reach for it first, before trying better methods.
Speaking of which I assume the Millenia and Pultec are hardware units ? The Pultec is vintage or modern version?
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  #29  
Old 02-06-2017, 12:44 PM
midwinter midwinter is offline
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Originally Posted by Truckjohn View Post
First thought. Strings. Do you run mediums or lights. Lighter strings tend to produce more noise/jangle where medium strings tend to produce more standard guitar sound.

Second...
I know you have the stable of guitars you have and all....

Any chance you could do a test of the same recording with a *good* J-45? Maybe borrow one from a friend...

One of the neat things about a really good J-45 is that they don't tend to make as much in the way of jangly overtones unless you play them softly. It's got to do with the way the bracing is designed. These tend to be popular with singer/songwriters because they just sound like "guitar".. Especially with medium strings... Think classic James Taylor....

I would expect your Taylor's to produce more jangly overtones, and especially the D-41.... Which I would guess would make a lot more chimey overtones.

Thanks
Medium strings might help. A lighter pick, too, maybe?

Again, I don't really hear anything all that bad in the recording. My notching on the EQ in that image was pretty mild.
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  #30  
Old 02-06-2017, 02:12 PM
Bowie Bowie is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Speaking of which I assume the Millenia and Pultec are hardware units ? The Pultec is vintage or modern version?
Hardware. The Millennia is an NSEQ. The Pultec I currently own is an interesting one. I built it with a specific blend of vintage and modern parts, in a point-to-point layout, and original style faceplate. Last year, I did some side-by-side comparisons with a 1950s original and actually liked the low end response of my own build a little better (which came as a big surprise, but a happy one). But, the top has a lot of color and I want to tune it a bit to get it just a little more neutral if I'm going to sell them. So, I've got some alternate parts and I'm going to swap and compare in the coming weeks. I have a couple of clients inquiring about buying this so I might end up building a few.
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