Some Large Condenser Mic Placements

[Cue Zephyr]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I've tried that in the past, and never had any luck with it. I think I can't get it in my head how someone could have one ear in front of the guitar and one over my opposite shoulder :-) But it's worth trying again, since it keeps showing up in recommendations.

I hear ya. The only explanation I have for it, is that it creates a distorted stereo image - essentially creating a sense of space that can't really be sensed by a human listening to it in the room. It kind of reminds me of the Glyn-Johns technique for recording drums (one mic at the top, one at the side).

[anton]

I gave the horizontal placement a try with my ADK's. Nice sound, and easier to achieve a balance sound left to right vs a spaced pair. I just couldnt get a strong enough signal with the Zoom H6, with the preamps at 6.

[Doug Young]

I've messed with things like this. This plugin is probably converting the signal to MS and then letting you manipulate the width by varying the side volume. Below some cutoff frequency, they just make it mono. isotope's Ozone mastering plugin lets you create multiple bands at any frequency points and set the width of each independently. If it sound better to make the bass mono, I don't see any problem, tho I've never ended up doing that.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by anton

I gave the horizontal placement a try with my ADK's. Nice sound, and easier to achieve a balance sound left to right vs a spaced pair. I just couldnt get a strong enough signal with the Zoom H6, with the preamps at 6.

It's going to be quieter (the guitar) and pick up more room sound (so potentially more noise), since the mics aren't aimed at the guitar as much. But absolute volume in recording isn't a big deal. With 24 bits, you could record as a very low level and still have a perfectly fine recording, you just turn it up when you mix. But I'd also just turn the H6 up until you have a decent level. Unless your unit is defective, the noise you're hearing is coming from the mics and room, so you'll have the same relative noise level no matter where you set the volume. How about posting a recording with the Zoom levels at like 3, and 6, and 9, so we can hear what's going on?

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Hi Doug,
Could you describe the mic location for your M-S setup? I'm curious where you place them and how far out from the guitar. When I've experimented with it I had to have them pretty close in order for the ribbon mic to pick up sound off the guitar (and not just reflections) because the guitar would be in the ribbons null if it was backed off very far. My results seemed very sensitive to placement.

...

The Side (ribbon) mic _should_ be picking up mostly reflections. Listening to the raw signals from a mid-side setup is totally different from listening to any other pair of stereo signals.

Fran

[Trevor B.]

Just listened to the samples again and even though the spaced pair sounds a little cleaner to me, the mid/side placement just has a fantastic presence that wins it for me. Excuse my lack of technical vocabulary here, but I recently listened to an M/S mic placement breakdown and explanation on Sound On Sound (I think) and was surprised by how much quieter the side mic signals were compared to the mid mic. I'm therefore assuming that the split signal from the mid mic is whats giving Doug's M/S sample so much presence. And, conversely, the side mic is creating the sense of space but contributes somewhere between little and nothing to the presence. Is this right and does it make sense?

[Cue Zephyr]

Trevor,

IN M/S recording, both channels are level-matched before the mics are set-up int he M/S configuration. That explains the lower signal.

Also to be absolutely sure it's the mid mic, you can try setting your listening device to mono which will completely cancel out the side mic.

[rockabilly69]

I like the M/S the best, spaced pair second, and horizontal least, but all of them were useable takes to me.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

Just listened to the samples again and even though the spaced pair sounds a little cleaner to me, the mid/side placement just has a fantastic presence that wins it for me. Excuse my lack of technical vocabulary here, but I recently listened to an M/S mic placement breakdown and explanation on Sound On Sound (I think) and was surprised by how much quieter the side mic signals were compared to the mid mic. I'm therefore assuming that the split signal from the mid mic is whats giving Doug's M/S sample so much presence. And, conversely, the side mic is creating the sense of space but contributes somewhere between little and nothing to the presence. Is this right and does it make sense?

Yes, the "side" in any stereo signal is lower than the mids. As others explained, you start with the mics set to the same volume (easy in this case, since I have fairly matching mics, so I just have the preamp at the same gain), but then one is facing side-to-side, with the null aimed at the guitar, so it's substantially lower in volume. But when you combine them, you get the equivalent of an XY stereo signal.

No idea what you're hearing as far as presence, but indeed, if you have a mono switch on your playback, go to mono and the sides will be canceled out, and you'll just hear the mid mic. I suspect the side contribute a lot to any sense of presence.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Here's my results. Just a short noodle with three placements: the horizontal one, Mid-Side and Spaced Pairs. I'm using a pair of Brauner VM1s into an Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt, into Logic on a Mac.

So to clarify the VM's are plugged directly into the Ensemble pre's yes?



And a thought on this

"No idea what you're hearing as far as presence, but indeed, if you have a mono switch on your playback, go to mono and the sides will be canceled out, and you'll just hear the mid mic. I suspect the side contribute a lot to any sense of presence.

We should not forget that one of the great advantages of a good clean stereo sound field is not only a linear side to side placement (width) but also a sense of depth of field (or sense of space). Which IMO can also really contribute to the overall sense of presence (or being in the room ) and this I think is where two major factors come into play. How clean and accurate the entire signal chain is, as well as how problem reduced, the recording room acoustics are. As it is entirely possible to have a very wide but very flat (or shallow) sense of space
__________________

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KevWind

So to clarify the VM's are plugged directly into the Ensemble pre's yes?

Yes, mics directly the Ensemble, then to the Mac via thunderbolt, so all one box. I still need to do an AB compare between an external preamp and the Ensemble's preamps, but so far, it all sounds good to me.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by runamuck

Thanks for this, Doug. Here's my take.

When quickly moving from one track to the other, the differences are interesting and my brain, I think, is fascinated, titillated even, by the difference. I wouldn't say that I have a strong preference for one over the others.

But once my ear settles into one track or another for a few seconds, it just is what it is and it quickly becomes all about the song - not the stereo field.

Jim McCarthy

this is exactly why happened to me.

however, after switching back and forth, through computer speakers i liked the mid-side the best, and through the headphones i liked the horizontal the best, where it seemed a little warmer with less high end sizzle.

[815C]

Check out this mic placement. Grammy winner Bryan Lenox was the engineer on this session. Two Shure KSM44 mics on each side of a mannequin's head where the ears would be. You can hear the result of this session in the video below....

[mc1]

Originally Posted by 815C

Check out this mic placement. Grammy winner Bryan Lenox was the engineer on this session. Two Shure KSM44 mics on each side of a mannequin's head where the ears would be. You can hear the result of this session in the video below....

sounds great.

is that a hat or a wind screen? it's both.

btw, i like how doug upgraded your username.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

... But when 914c recorded that way, he had an engineer who was experienced with it, and who could listen as he played. ...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by mc1

btw, i like how doug upgraded your username.

Oops :-) I was never good with model numbers. Well, it's an excuse for a new guitar, right?

Cool photo! That appears to be sort of ORTF with a binaural slant. I haven't tried ORTF with these mics, but it's worth a try. Can't decide if I'd want the cute girl watching me while I record, or if the disembodied head is a little too creepy :-) I do have a Jecklin disk I could try as a less life-like substitute.