How to make a cheap banjo better?

[tdq]

I've been hankering after a banjo, preferably open backed, really liked the Deering Americana when I tried one. I'm not a banjo player though and can't really justify the expense, as known brands can be quite expensive here in Australia.

At the risk of opening a hefty can of worms, what makes a good banjo good?
I tried a "cheap" one next to an "expensive" one, visually there's not much to it, but the expensive one was much better although I couldn't put my finger on why, other than it was lighter.

I was thinking about buying a cheap one - and working on it to make it better, I'm not averse to a little tinkering. Assuming I can find one that has a straight neck and decent intonation, what else could I tweak or should I look out for?
e.g. I'm happy to replace tuners, adjust/replace the bridge, that kind of thing.
Just hoping to end up with a decent, on-the-couch noodling banjo.

[endpin]

Originally Posted by tdq

...what makes a good banjo good?

A good bronze tone-ring casting properly seated in the shell.

[bkepler]

The setup on a banjo is the really important part. Like was said above, a high quality, well-seated tone ring is what will give a nice bluegrass banjo that little something extra. It sounds like that’s not the way you want to go though with an open back. In that case, it’s so much more about setup. There are a ton of different kinds of heads, depending on the sound you’re looking for. Most importantly is making sure the head is nice and tight. It’s a tedious process as you want to go slowly, but this is the essential first step because it messes with the geometry across the rest of the instrument. Then adjust the intonation with the bridge. Finally, pick your bridge height and then fine-tune the intonation. Quality tuners are important to the function of the instrument as you’ll be doing plenty of tuning. Also, as far as tinkering, you could add some railroad spikes for capoing the 5th string. My current favorite way is the Strum Hollow 5th string capo, but the hobby spikes are very DIY.

(The screw on the strum hollow changed from brass to white plastic. I thought the big white dot was a huge eyesore so I colored it with a black permanent marker and it made all the difference.)

[roylor4]

Buy a Goldtone AC-1 and you're done. Fine banjo at a very low cost.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by tdq

I've been hankering after a banjo, preferably open backed, really liked the Deering Americana when I tried one. I'm not a banjo player though and can't really justify the expense, as known brands can be quite expensive here in Australia.

At the risk of opening a hefty can of worms, what makes a good banjo good?
I tried a "cheap" one next to an "expensive" one, visually there's not much to it, but the expensive one was much better although I couldn't put my finger on why, other than it was lighter.

I was thinking about buying a cheap one - and working on it to make it better, I'm not averse to a little tinkering. Assuming I can find one that has a straight neck and decent intonation, what else could I tweak or should I look out for?
e.g. I'm happy to replace tuners, adjust/replace the bridge, that kind of thing.
Just hoping to end up with a decent, on-the-couch noodling banjo.

You can find info I previously posted on design, construction, and setup of open back banjos here:

http://web.archive.org/web/201603282...njoDesign.html

A cast tone ring is almost never used for open back banjos. As you probably know, there are different types of banjos just as there are different types of guitars. There is as much difference between a good open back and a standard resonator banjo(which is normally fitted with a cast tone ring) as there is between a steel string and a classical guitar.

[Big Band Guitar]

I tinkered with banjos a lot a few years ago.

What I discovered:

Really cheap banjo can not be improved much. I did lots of "improvements". All of them helped a little. The biggest improvement was fitting the neck to the pot and adding dual coordinating rods. The rods were threaded into a steel rod set into the neck heel.

Taking all the information I gained tinkering I decided to build one from scratch.

Local cherry wood.
2 piece laminated neck with a maple cherry maple center stripe. Slotted head stock, guitar tuners 5th string tunneled under fingerboard. Also 2 inch longer scale than "normal". Ebony fingerboard.
Zero fret and brass nut.
Tapped steel rod set in the heel for the dual coordinating rods Single acting truss rod also through the steel rod.
7/8 thick segmented pot with no tone ring
Open back, Hooks and shoes from a civil war era banjo.

A well fit tone ring may not be that important. My Mastertone has a tone ring that floats on ball bearings and springs. it sounds amazing.

I have been asked "what tone ring did you put in that".

All internal hardware off the shelf local hardware. except tuners, tailpiece, hooks and shoes.

At the time (1995) my out of pocket cost about $60.

It stays in tune.

[tdq]

Thanks all for your input. Food for thought! The research continues.

[H165]

I've been doing conversions of old tenor and plectrum Gibson Mastertones to 5 strings for more than 40 years. I've also converted maybe 50 non-Gibsons (Vega, Leedy, Ludwig, B&D, Paramount, Rettberg.Lange, MayBell, Lyon & Healy, etc, etc.) to 5 strings. I've also repaired and set up too many old-time banjos to count. Some are downright weird. Especially the tone rings. I've done so many banjo repairs I finally got tired of it and quit.

Banjo bodies and necks are just like resophonic guitars and drums- they are basically machinery - frames and components designed to support
the transmission of human-generated energy through resonating membranes into the air (and sometimes into pickups). The less loss of energy transmitted to the frame, the better the banjo head will operate. Heavy tone rings tend to reduce loss of energy, regardless of fit. But the proper fit, and the amount of torque used to tighten ALL the various components, contribute to keeping the energy generated by the human projected off the two faces of the head instead of losing it into the supporting framework.

So, to the question - Q:

How to make a cheap banjo better?

A: Remove the head. Tighten up EVERYTHING. Every fastener, joint, and mating surface. If mating surfaces don't mate well, modify them to mate better. Next, install the head with EVEN downpressure on the hooks or bolts securing the the tension hoop. Do anything you can to reduce loss of energy. Don't over-tighten the head - just get it to the sound and action you like without exceeding the recommended tension.

And, as noted a few places above, the old hot rod adage still applies: "Good performance starts with good parts". This does not mean the parts have to be expensive.

I was surprised that you liked the lighter banjo over the heavier one - that is about the opposite of all blugrass players and many non-grassers.

[catt]

Rip out the first five frets.

[tdq]

Originally Posted by H165

A: Remove the head. Tighten up EVERYTHING. Every fastener, joint, and mating surface. If mating surfaces don't mate well, modify them to mate better. Next, install the head with EVEN downpressure on the hooks or bolts securing the the tension hoop. Do anything you can to reduce loss of energy. Don't over-tighten the head - just get it to the sound and action you like without exceeding the recommended tension.

Wow great info thanks for that, makes a lot of sense and something I think I could manage.

Originally Posted by H165

I was surprised that you liked the lighter banjo over the heavier one - that is about the opposite of all blugrass players and many non-grassers.

I think it was more that it was just an inferior banjo - didn't sound or play as nice. I'm not looking to play bluegrass, in fact what I really want is a minstrel style fretless but they are non-existent over here and I should probably start with something a bit more "normal" as I have no banjo technique at all.

[Les Young]

Originally Posted by roylor4

Buy a Goldtone AC-1 and you're done. Fine banjo at a very low cost.

I have a goldtone ac-5 acoustic it's called. It has a composite resonator. It's pretty light & loud & plays good. No complaints with mine. I bought mine on reverb. Google gold tone music group because it's not just banjos. They have many different instrumenys & many different styles of those instruments. Really worth checking out for you i believe.

[DungBeatle]

I had a really cheap 5 string banjo. The best improvement to it was when I burned it in the back yard.
~Bob

[Robin, Wales]

There's nothing wrong with buying a cheap open backed banjo. The Deering Goodtime range are fine. Don't worry about getting a high end one with a metal tone ring - lots of very, very good clawhammer players simply use a wooden pot. Most old time players I know (me to) end up stuffing a rag in the back of their banjo anyway to tone the thing down and make playing more controllable. You can experiment with different heads and bridges (not too expensive to do) but, basically just play the darn thing. Buying second hand, as long as nothings broken, is usually OK. You don't need the finesse of low action and exact set-up for old time playing - in fact, you want a bit of room - so 'playability' is not quite as important as it is when buying a guitar.

I was given an Essex and Cammeyer (made about 1895) in bits and built it up. It has a brass tone ring and sounds terrible! But with a rag stuffed in it she sounds great and more than good enough for sitting in at old time sessions. Don't worry about weight etc - if you are not playing bluegrass with fingerpicks you don't need power. As I said, for clawhammer you want to bring the ringing and volume down a bit. There is a LOT of the player in the tone of a clawhammer banjo - YOU will have a great effect on the tone, more than any other factor.

One tip - once you have the basic stroke start playing at old time sessions. The banjo is pretty intuitive and it is not too difficult to pick up tunes.

Enjoy your journey

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by tdq

I've been hankering after a banjo, preferably open backed, really liked the Deering Americana when I tried one. I'm not a banjo player though and can't really justify the expense, as known brands can be quite expensive here in Australia.

Have you considered buying used? I had a look on Australian ebay, just out of curiosity. This is just one I found. Sears instruments are usually decently made. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sears-Ro....c100010.m2109

[DenverSteve]

Trade it for a ukulele.