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  #16  
Old 09-14-2008, 09:21 PM
Made In Canada Made In Canada is offline
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Thanks Tim.

I've suspected it's Sapele since the day I brought it home.....never really mattered to me as I'd have no problem buying a Sapele 15 or Larrivee and I bought it because I like the way it sounded and looked. I'm just curious about it is all.

And for the post after that, I love my all Hog Martin.....if I ever get a custom or a higher end guitar it will no doubt be either a Hog top or a Koa top.
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  #17  
Old 09-14-2008, 09:50 PM
BBWW BBWW is offline
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Default Domestic Tonewood

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodges_Guitars View Post
In the mean time, I am stocking up on domestic tonewoods so that I can build with woods that are not endangered and for the time being easy to acquire. I feel that at some point there will be a demand on these domestic woods that will make them harder to find also.
I would have to agree. Great North American woods like Myrtle, Maple, Walnut and top woods like Redwood and the North American Spruces will be even more prized. They make great guitars too. What are you stocking up on that you love?

I really want a Myrtle / Redwood but some have shuttered at the possible look of the pair together. If could never come close to some of the big mistakes in my life. I bet it would sound great.
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  #18  
Old 09-14-2008, 09:59 PM
Hodges_Guitars Hodges_Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBWW View Post
I would have to agree. Great North American woods like Myrtle, Maple, Walnut and top woods like Redwood and the North American Spruces will be even more prized. They make great guitars too. What are you stocking up on that you love?

I really want a Myrtle / Redwood but some have shuttered at the possible look of the pair together. If could never come close to some of the big mistakes in my life. I bet it would sound great.

The woods I am stocking up on are

Spruce, Western Red Cedar, Myrtle, Osage Orange, Ash, Cherry, Walnut, Maple, and a few others here and there. All of them are excellent tonewoods but rarely used right now. I am betting that this will change over the next 10 to 20 years.
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  #19  
Old 09-15-2008, 01:30 AM
BBWW BBWW is offline
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Default Ash

Wow, I have not heard an Ash acoustic, but I did play an Oak Martin Prototype once and went back to buy it at a used store and it was gone. It was real woody and had a great sustain as I recall. It's one the got away. I've never seen another.

Good woods for sure and most likely a wise investment. That's what I tell my wife when she catches me looking at what she call's "Wood Porn" on the internet.

Thanks.
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  #20  
Old 09-15-2008, 03:58 AM
airguitarro airguitarro is offline
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Bruce,

Not to second-guess you on it as I know next to nothing on these things, but what I always figured from my Internet trawlings was that the official species name for Cuban mahogany was "swietenia mahagoni"? Isn't "small leaf mahogany" just one of the many colloquial names that cuban mahogany is called - like Dominican mahogany or West Indies mahogany?

Was I wrong in that understanding?

AG

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Originally Posted by Brock Poling View Post
Mahogany as we know it is swietenia macrophylla (Honduran Mahogany) and Cuban Mahogany is swietenia microphylla. Swietenia's are the "true" mahoganies.

Sapele and African Mahogany are Mahogany "like" woods. They are both decent tonewoods, but not true mahogany.

In terms of what the big manufacturers do... I think you will see a shift of the lower price guitars moving to the African substitutes, but the higher priced guitars and the hand builts will have mahogany for as long as any of us care to worry about it. There is quite a bit of lumber around still, and if and when that can't be exported there are plenty of old bars and old furniture that can be "reclaimed".

I think the most noticable difference a mahogany shortage will produce is in neck stock. I think you will see lots more scarfed head stock joints (which are better anyway) and perhaps a shift to more plentiful materials. Neck stock has been skyrocketing in recent years. It is very hard to find clear honduran mahogany in 12/4 or 16/4.
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  #21  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:08 AM
Brock Poling Brock Poling is offline
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And as I say, for back and side woods, the world is FULL TO THE BRIM with wood that can be reclaimed. A restaurant not far from my house (not a fancy one either) is covered in old mahogany. If they ever go kaput... you can bet I will be there wallet in hand.
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  #22  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:40 AM
L Kragenbrink L Kragenbrink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Poling View Post
And as I say, for back and side woods, the world is FULL TO THE BRIM with wood that can be reclaimed. A restaurant not far from my house (not a fancy one either) is covered in old mahogany. If they ever go kaput... you can bet I will be there wallet in hand.
+1 on what Brock is saying. We had a pub in Jackson Mi that was gutted and remodeled a few years back, left a ton of mahogany boards that are all in the 50 to 60 year old range. I have yet to aquire any, but I know where they are
I am on the fence about domestic woods for back and sides, I think they will be around for ages to come. I'm also not sure how geeked I am about using them..... with the exception of Walnut and Maple.
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  #23  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:48 AM
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Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
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Hey Lance,
Build one out of osage and you may change your mind

Airguitarro,
Swietenia mahagonii is the correct botanical name for Cuban or small leaf mahogany.
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2008, 06:56 AM
L Kragenbrink L Kragenbrink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Hey Lance,
Build one out of osage and you may change your mind
Tim, I have no doubt that the domestics are good sounding tone woods, Its more a personal hang up. I really favor the traditional stuff.
I also think that they will be around and available much longer than I will
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2008, 08:16 AM
airguitarro airguitarro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Hey Lance,
Build one out of osage and you may change your mind

Airguitarro,
Swietenia mahagonii is the correct botanical name for Cuban or small leaf mahogany.
Many thanks for that! I understand that non-plantation cuban is very rare - is it CITES protected yet?

One thing seems to be for sure from what I am gathering from this forum and others, if you want to have a guitar made with the more famous and scarce tonewoods, better get crackin' before it's all gone ...
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  #26  
Old 09-15-2008, 08:27 AM
MattJohnPaul MattJohnPaul is offline
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how long has mahogany been on the cites list?
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  #27  
Old 09-15-2008, 10:25 AM
BBWW BBWW is offline
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Internationally agreed trade regulations for big-leaf mahogany took effect on November 15, 2003 under the CITES treaty. The neotropical populations of big-leaf mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla, are listed on CITES Appendix II, which requires that shipments of this timber be accompanied by a CITES export permit.

As a side note, Breedlove sent David Knophfler home with one of my 3 sister Quilted Mahogany guitars and customs in London held it. He does have it now but I don't have the whole story yet.

Last edited by BBWW; 09-15-2008 at 10:32 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-15-2008, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattJohnPaul View Post
how long has mahogany been on the cites list?
Swietenia macrophylla was placed on CITES Appendix III on November 16, 1995. Appendix III is the lowest level of protection, but it is a harbinger that a species is moving towards extinction.

Swietenia macrophylla which is commonly called big leaf mahogany (or other common names such as Honduran mahogany) was then uplisted to CITES Appendix II on November 15, 2003 where it is now. Appendix II carries substantial import and export controls, but still allows limited import and export under controlled conditions with permits from each government for each shipment.

Swietenia mahogoni, which is where this group of three true mahogany species gets it common name and which is most commonly called Caribbean mahogany (but also called Cuban mahogany and other common names) was placed on CITES Appendix II on June 11, 1992

Swietenia humilis which is commonly called Pacific Coast mahogany (but also has some other common names) was placed on CITES Appendix II on July 1, 1975.

The only one of these that is still in commercial production is Swietenia macrophylla and that is only for another few years before it becomes logged out for commercial logging standards. The other two species - Swietenia mahogoni and Swietenia humilis are both logged out as far an commericial logging is concerned. There are still a few specimen trees around in peoples' back yards or in national parks and you can buy a few boards of them if you are willing to pay a price or have modest expectations on quality. There is not enough of this lumber for a large builder to be able to offer guitars made of these second two mahogany species.

As was mentioned above, the African and Asian species that are sold as African mahogany or Asian mahogany are not actually mahogany. These are species that look a bit like mahogany and are being used as less expensive and easily available substitutes since they are currently relatively plentiful. The two most commonly seen and used of these substitute species are sapele and khaya.
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2008, 10:12 PM
BlackHeart BlackHeart is offline
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I grabbed a couple sets of Ziricote a couple years ago, (that I could not afford) and the same dealer still has his last 2 sets. But another dealer is all sold out. Everything is getting more rare. But there is also a guitar age bubble, most acoustic guitarists are average 45+ years old (from Acoustic Guitar Magazine) There is not really a folk movement going on right now. Rock is ....almost dead.
In 20 years, you will see alot of these buyers dying off, or retiring their $$$ guitars. The market will get flooded with all the stuff being built now.

In 6 years an average H.mahogany set may go for close to $100.00

On a side note, Pernambuco, Violin bow wood, is very scarce, but they are regrowing it, and should have exportable wood in about 15 years.

The rainforest issue is another issue that goes along with global warming. The earth is a mess.
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