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  #16  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:14 AM
mrgraveline mrgraveline is offline
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Originally Posted by Shadowfox View Post
There is actually a good chance that Andy Powers' story about surfing is true. I would rather see a well shot video giving the idea then read a long article.

There is a term called Biomimetics. It's where various engineering disciplines take things from nature and apply it to how we engineer things. It's quite remarkable actually.
But... but... itís all just marketing magic!! Andy Powers is just a cyborg that Bob created with a CNC machine! I will never buy or play a Taylor because I think they make too nice of videos! There is no science or innovation, juts an evil corporate marketing machine! I must go run and grasp tightly my 90s 810 and my perfect HD28 and rock myself to sleep to escape the pretty videos that Andy Powers, Master Cyborg Marketer has forced upon my eyes!!!
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  #17  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:14 AM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
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...Andy explaining how his new bracing solves a problem with sustain and volume. Iíve played many guitars that I donít believe have any problem in either of those areas. I donít know it was an issue?
I completely agree with you. Since the invention of the acoustic amp 'volume of acoustic guitars' has been an old-school sales argument. In addition, some of my guitars have even too much sustain for certain playing styles so the whole paradigm of must have volume AND sustain is invalid in my experience as a guitar player.

I wonder how well the Taylor Marketeers play guitar...
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:16 AM
Rmz76 Rmz76 is offline
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...
So, this morning I received the Taylor Insider email with a link to the video What is V-Class Bracing where I saw Andy Powers sitting in his cabin, staring out of the window, scratching his chin and sketching in a Robinson Crusoe style diary, tinkering with wooden sticks, allegedly inventing V-bracing. Oh please guys... how old do you think your customers are by the time they can afford a Taylor? This is all so clearly put in scene and made up... just like the whole rest of the story.
The message in the advertising is that when you buy a new V-Class braced guitar, you're getting a hand built instrument from Andy Power's workshop. It's also a message of "we've come up with a new voicing that is superior to the historic X bracing pattern that exist in every guitar that you've fallen in love with".

It's easy to see why this is a bit offensive. I'm sure the new voicing delivers at least some of the things claimed (the better projection/volume/sustain on notes played high up the neck come through in the videos), but I'm also certain that it won't be for everyone just because tone/timbre in general is so subjective and what you want for one performance situation could be different than another. It is not and never will be one guitar voice that makes everyone happy. Any guitarist who's been playing for a few years knows this and Taylor seems to be saying "we have THE answer to a problem you've always had" and it seems disingenuous.

Bob Taylor's biography reveals a lot. Under Bob and Kurt's leadership creative advertising has been used but they've also been transparent in letting the world know that their product is largely machine built. The transitioning with V-Bracing advertising follows this trend they started after announcing Andy Powers as Bob's successor. The image projected is a master craftsman working in his shop building a guitar just for you. That's what the advertisement wants the viewer to think.


Quote:

This is not how a top manufacturer designs guitars. I'll tell you what really happened. Taylor, or maybe Andy, has been experimenting with different bracings. Of course! If you have a Taylor factory at your disposal you can make ten guitars every day with all kinds of wild bracings and simply try them out. Fantastic, and its great they did this. And so, one of those new patterns actually sounded pretty good, and they decided to productise it in a limited series. So far so good.

At that point, they should have done something like this:



Now that would have been an honest and open customer communication that would have shown respect to me, as one of their better customers, and all other Taylor addicts...
Last night I did a search for NAMM 2018 videos and it appears Taylor's marketing approach is working well. A few big name review sites are calling out Taylor's V-Bracing as general "best of show". Probably everyone here want's to give one of these V-Braced guitars a try (I know that I do). So I think the advertising is a win in that regard.

Going back to the early days of Taylor, Bob Taylor outlines in his bio the importance creative marketing has had. So even Bob Taylor is saying in an indirect way that it's the brand building through advertising and marketing that is as much responsible as the product itself for their success. That clever advertising and not the quality is what separates them from companies like Larrivee and Breedlove who have also been successful but not nearly as successful as Taylor. As far as bringing a unique guitar to market at a reasonable price, I'm much more impressed with Breedlove's guitars than Taylor's and I believe if Breedlove had better marketing and advertising that they would be bigger than Taylor, but the product's quality only doesn't sell the product.

I think Taylor's advertising message of "we build a better guitar" has always been different than Gibson's and Martin's. The traditional builder's guitars sell on legacy and that legacy includes specific iconic models but also in brand reputation. In order to bring a product to market that could break through those deep roots other companies have, Taylor had come out swinging with bold (over hyped) claims from the beginning.

So while some are thinking "I can't believe they are going this far with advertising" part of me is thinking "It's just Taylor being Taylor, maybe you haven't realized how much their clever advertising lured you in years ago".
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Last edited by Rmz76; 01-26-2018 at 10:29 AM.
  #19  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:20 AM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Marketing aside, I got to play the new guitars yesterday and it sounds like they might have something to brag about, regardless how Andy came up with it. I am very much looking forward to playing the new models alongside previous version in our store in the next few weeks.
  #20  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:22 AM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
I know there is another thread about Taylor's new V-bracing, but I decided to open this new one to focus more on the transition from Taylor as an open, honest and passionate guitar builder to the manipulative marketing machine they seem to have turned in to. As a long time Taylor player, I am so not impressed, and actually feel like I am not taken seriously anymore as a customer.

Let me get one thing straight: I love Taylors and I owned just about every body shape of their top models. I purchased several dozens of high end Taylors in the last 15 years or so and I still own a handful of their top-of-the-line instruments, including BTO's. Fantastic guitars!

And that's why it really saddens me to read all the marketing yadayada Taylor tries to convince their customers with today. It is all so fake, it's not sincere, and often the arguments don't even make sense from a physics point of view.

So, this morning I received the Taylor Insider email with a link to the video What is V-Class Bracing where I saw Andy Powers sitting in his cabin, staring out of the window, scratching his chin and sketching in a Robinson Crusoe style diary, tinkering with wooden sticks, allegedly inventing V-bracing. Oh please guys... how old do you think your customers are by the time they can afford a Taylor? This is all so clearly put in scene and made up... just like the whole rest of the story.

This is not how a top manufacturer designs guitars. I'll tell you what really happened. Taylor, or maybe Andy, has been experimenting with different bracings. Of course! If you have a Taylor factory at your disposal you can make ten guitars every day with all kinds of wild bracings and simply try them out. Fantastic, and its great they did this. And so, one of those new patterns actually sounded pretty good, and they decided to productise it in a limited series. So far so good.

At that point, they should have done something like this:



Now that would have been an honest and open customer communication that would have shown respect to me, as one of their better customers, and all other Taylor addicts. And it would certainly have attracted me to the Taylor headquarters in Amsterdam to try one of these new machines out - and even buy one on the spot. But after this whole fake fairytale story full of pseudo science and makebelief... it will probably take a while before I go to Amsterdam.

And in the mean time I wish Bob fires the Taylor marketeers. They are ruining what was once a great company i.m.h.o.
So, how do they sound?
  #21  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:28 AM
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martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
I know there is another thread about Taylor's new V-bracing, but I decided to open this new one to focus more on the transition from Taylor as an open, honest and passionate guitar builder to the manipulative marketing machine they seem to have turned in to. As a long time Taylor player, I am so not impressed, and actually feel like I am not taken seriously anymore as a customer.

Let me get one thing straight: I love Taylors and I owned just about every body shape of their top models. I purchased several dozens of high end Taylors in the last 15 years or so and I still own a handful of their top-of-the-line instruments, including BTO's. Fantastic guitars!

And that's why it really saddens me to read all the marketing yadayada Taylor tries to convince their customers with today. It is all so fake, it's not sincere, and often the arguments don't even make sense from a physics point of view.

So, this morning I received the Taylor Insider email with a link to the video What is V-Class Bracing where I saw Andy Powers sitting in his cabin, staring out of the window, scratching his chin and sketching in a Robinson Crusoe style diary, tinkering with wooden sticks, allegedly inventing V-bracing. Oh please guys... how old do you think your customers are by the time they can afford a Taylor? This is all so clearly put in scene and made up... just like the whole rest of the story.

This is not how a top manufacturer designs guitars. I'll tell you what really happened. Taylor, or maybe Andy, has been experimenting with different bracings. Of course! If you have a Taylor factory at your disposal you can make ten guitars every day with all kinds of wild bracings and simply try them out. Fantastic, and its great they did this. And so, one of those new patterns actually sounded pretty good, and they decided to productise it in a limited series. So far so good.

At that point, they should have done something like this:



Now that would have been an honest and open customer communication that would have shown respect to me, as one of their better customers, and all other Taylor addicts. And it would certainly have attracted me to the Taylor headquarters in Amsterdam to try one of these new machines out - and even buy one on the spot. But after this whole fake fairytale story full of pseudo science and makebelief... it will probably take a while before I go to Amsterdam.

And in the mean time I wish Bob fires the Taylor marketeers. They are ruining what was once a great company i.m.h.o.
Brother, you read my mind! You should go read my Guitar Marketing thread where I say similar things. Great stuff! Wooden sicks... Staring out the window... my sentiments EXACTLY. LOL
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:29 AM
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:33 AM
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Yeah, that marketing clip was a little over the top. But I like the guitar and was impressed with the great intonation and sweetness high on the neck of the guitar demonstrated well by Zac Brown. I'm dubious, however, that Taylor has created something above and beyond other great guitars when it comes to sustain and power.
  #24  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:34 AM
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LOL!!! I JUST SPIT A MOUTHFUL OF COFFEE ALL OVER MY COMPUTER.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:35 AM
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LOL!!! I JUST SPIT A MOUTHFUL OF COFFEE ALL OVER MY COMPUTER.
Me too lol
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  #26  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by HHP View Post
They should probably have a picture of Lloyd Loar in their advertising as their "new" bracing looks a lot like Loar's tone bars from the mid-20's. Really looks like the bars on an oval hole Gibson L4. Maybe they had a seance.
It also looks similar to the V-style Kasha bracing used in Gibson Mark acoustics.
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:48 AM
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I'm pretty sure Taylor tested this design and proved it before marketing.
It's not a drawing from a 1st grader.
It's from one of their guitar designers with years of experience.

Taylor won't invest time and $$$$ on a design that's inferior to existing one.

Why is it fake? Why does Taylor, already highly reputed guitar company, need to convince customers?
Once buyers play it, they'll know whether it's good or not.
They are not trying to market a pumpkin as a guitar.

Innovation leads to new things and initially it gets comments like this from those who haven't even played it and who never built a guitar.
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2018, 10:49 AM
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So you're saying they should have spent countless hours on R&D, retooled their factory, and come up with a new design and then had an ad campaign something along the lines of "Taylor--we changed some stuff; whatever..."
Of course not. They make great guitars, and the Taylor story is a great story by itself. They don't need to invent fake fantasy stories and use pseudo scientific arguments. They should use Marketing to make their customers aware of the genuine value their brand has.
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Old 01-26-2018, 10:56 AM
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I canít blame Taylor for trying to come up with something they think is new and better. Any business should be looking for innovation. They can pile on the marketing fluff all they want. It's their money. Beyond the marketing, the question is if this is simply a solution in search of a problem?

I guess this thread is beating a dead horse to an extent, but isnít that what forums do in so many cases? I would guess we all have different reasons for logging in to forums. Some do it to express an opinion because they want to be heard, some to be truly helpful by sharing their expertise, some to rant, some to learn, some to kill time, and some to run up their post numbers for some personal gratification it gives them to see that big number next to their moniker. Iím sure there are many more reasons, but it is not uncommon to see several threads with the same theme. We donít HAVE to read each one, but many do. The reader and responder (me in this post) not only beat the horse, we drag it around the barnyard a bit.
  #30  
Old 01-26-2018, 11:03 AM
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Slick, even ad nauseum, marketing is no reason to write anything off, of course. When does marketing ever engage reason, depth, substance? If it seems as though it does, it is only because it is appealing to that part of your emotional makeup that takes comfort in reason, depth, and substance.

What's behind all of this, however, is a very thoughtful and creative builder, with a great set of ears and deep musicianship. I found THIS podcast , put out yesterday, to be an excellent distillation of the deep thought that went into this new design:

https://player.fm/series/taylor-guit...-class-bracing

I admire the way that this is presented, with the exception of the two interviewers who, tho well-intentioned, serve to interrupt an otherwise substantive chain of thought. As a physician, I constantly struggle with how to explain complex biophysical principles behind patient's problems and the solutions that I propose. Andy Powers does an admirable job here of discussing waveforms, harmonics, constructive and destructive interference, and his attempts to solve the inherent contradictions.

As far as the other stuff that's come out -- the soft lighting, the slow mo of chisel on a long finished soundboard...I just turn it off, focus on the steak and not the sizzle, and save my indignance for things that matter
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