And now we have Gotoh 510 knockoffs....

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Gotoh makes its own tuners at its own factory in Japan. It’s not surprising that knockoffs are being made, because the genuine Gotoh 510’s are greatly admired and often found on the highest quality guitars. But wherever these 510 imitations are being made, it’s not on the same production line as the real thing.


Wade Hampton Miller

Interesting. I didn't realize that was a Japanese company.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

Interesting. I didn't realize that was a Japanese company.

That's why Gotohs are so good. They are the masters of metal work.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Gotoh makes its own tuners at its own factory in Japan. It’s not surprising that knockoffs are being made, because the genuine Gotoh 510’s are greatly admired and often found on the highest quality guitars. But wherever these 510 imitations are being made, it’s not on the same production line as the real thing.


Wade Hampton Miller

Hi Wade

Not news to you, but probably the most iconic knockoffs for the past 70 years have been the Martin D-18 and D-28.

If it's good, people imitate it. You can copyright, but I'm guessing there are enough differences that companies would waste a ton of money and effort to challenge their own patents (more than they can recover).

Authorized dealers are pretty important to the authenticity process…

[Tony Burns]

Why does this not surprise me .
wouldnt be surprised if they were actually made in China not Korea -
using that as a smoke screen .

[Wade Hampton]

Larry wrote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Not news to you, but probably the most iconic knockoffs for the past 70 years have been the Martin D-18 and D-28.

If it's good, people imitate it. You can copyright, but I'm guessing there are enough differences that companies would waste a ton of money and effort to challenge their own patents (more than they can recover).

Authorized dealers are pretty important to the authenticity process…

Oh, no question.

I don't doubt that imitation Gotoh 510's are being made by other companies. As you say, that sort of imitation is a very common practice in the musical instrument business. I was just responding to the suggestion that the real Gotoh tuners were being made by subcontractors in China or Korea, and that these knockoffs were being made on the same production line.

Unless Gotoh has completely changed their business model in the last couple of years, I seriously doubt that that's the case.


whm

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by stringjunky2

That's why Gotohs are so good. They are the masters of metal work.

Makes sense.

[Wolfram]

Firstly, the Gotoh 510 is a superb tuner! This is what provides the motivation to copy them.

The original dies used to be required to make accurate copies; not any more. Cheap 3D scanners can make an incredibly precise digital scan of a disassembled tuner, and the resultant data can easily be used to make copies or mass production tooling with a CNC mill. A couple of years ago I worked on a project to duplicate ultra-fine details of a 1928 Dobro resonator cone and spider using the same technology.

While most copies will be cheaply made (even with an accurate copy of the physical design, materials and production method may not be up to scratch) there's a growing threat from essentially identical copies being made. Effectively, these are arbitraging on the cost of employees, power, plant, and machinery to bring products to market at a cheaper price --- and, as mentioned in a post earlier, often at the legitimate company's expense!!!

But the fact is, the companies originating the design will have expended huge amounts of time, effort and money in R&D, marketing and bringing their original design to market. This needs to be recouped through their sales margin. The knock-offs have a comparatively negligible R&D cost to recoup, and are illegally piggy-backing on the original intellectual property.

As to international IP protection, take a look at this thread: https://umgf.com/chinese-company-leg...n-t110494.html

Essentially, Martin turned up to exhibit at a guitar show in China and were prevented from doing so: another unrelated Chinese company had already trademarked Martin's name and logo in China, and were happily making knock-offs completely legally (in China).

This is the horror situation for companies like mine.... I've already had companies trying to sell knockoffs of my products, and at one point there was even a "Wolfram Precision Crystal" nail file available from Alibaba - strange, as they are made in a tiny glass workshop on the outskirts of Prague - and the fact that their minimum order quantity was several times larger than the number of genuine Precision : Crystal files in existence at that time! Fighting all this takes time and money, and is an extremely unwelcome distraction.

So I guess what I'm saying is: if you see a cheap knockoff, don't buy it... Even if you would never have bought the genuine product (e.g. if it's too expensive) it does have an impact. The original manufacturers still have to fight it, and it becomes more and more difficult the richer the counterfeiters become.

There was a thread a while back about counterfeit guitar strings, where many AGFers largely dismissed the problem, saying that the strings were cheap, there wasn't much money to be made in counterfeiting and there wasn't a big issue. These strings are being faked in industrial quantities and there is most definitely profit for the counterfeiters. Huge amounts of it.

Anyway.... you can probably tell I'm someone who's been burned by counterfeiters, so I'll sign off now. But before buying a counterfeit for any reason - even just to try out on one of your less-special guitars - be aware that it has an impact.

Cheers,
David

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

Makes sense.

I should have added "the Japanese are masters" But I think you figured that out.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Larry wrote:



Oh, no question.

I don't doubt that imitation Gotoh 510's are being made by other companies. As you say, that sort of imitation is a very common practice in the musical instrument business. I was just responding to the suggestion that the real Gotoh tuners were being made by subcontractors in China or Korea, and that these knockoffs were being made on the same production line.

Unless Gotoh has completely changed their business model in the last couple of years, I seriously doubt that that's the case.


whm

HI Wade

As far as I know, Gotoh are still made in Japan.

And the 'fake' ones under discussion sold on eBay and Amazon are apparently made in Korea. They are not listed/advertised with a Permanent Lubri-Plate™ gear coating (like Gotoh).

So, as with knockoff Martin/Gibson/Taylor designs, the copying is only cosmetic.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by ntotoro

I don’t think China has any laws preventing that (do they?) and certainly don’t care about the laws of other countries.

Nick

Nope and from what I can see, honestly they could care less.

We have to deal with them at my work place too, and it's never a pleasant thing tons of hoops to jump through, and lots of time wasted waiting for approvals.

But hey, they are making better guitars these days,, so there's the upshot!

[jimmy bookout]

Well, at least they didn't label them "Gotoh"....