What does the majority say about lemon oil?

[Arch Stanton]

From Bob Taylor:

https://blog.taylorguitars.com/fretboard-oil

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Wade, could you be a bit more specific regarding which oils have caused this glue joint failure ? I assume that there is documented evidence of the phenomenon, to which you can refer me.

I am intrigued to know which oils have the capacity to eat, cancer like, through a 1/4" of solid ebony or rosewood, and have enough venom left at the end of the journey to dissolve a glue joint.

Honestly, Murray, I don't know whether the type of oil matters: it's the amount that counts. And it doesn't need to "dissolve" the glue, all it has to do is seep through the wood fibers and get between the wood of the fingerboard and the adhesive holding it to the wood of the neck.

It's a gradual process.

Here's an easy experiment for you: soak some wood in oil, really saturate it, then try to glue another piece of wood to it.

As for my source for this information, it was my longtime guitar repairman Robert Howard, who's now in his late 60's, who started working professionally as a guitar repairman while still in his teens. It was him who told me how over the years oil can penetrate through the wood and cause adhesion problems with both the fingerboard & neck glue joint, and - if applied sloppily - to the finish on the neck itself.

He's had to try to rescue a lot of guitars over the years, and those folks who regularly slather oil on their fingerboards have sometimes had the delamination problem I described in my earlier post. An overly enthusiastic application of oil can also eventually cause finish problems alongside the edge of the fingerboard.

Much of the information I've passed along on these forum threads over the years has originated with Robert. He isn't one for myths or Internet BS. As a rule, the information on the technical aspects of stringed instruments that he's taught me has been completely reliable.

So I see no reason why he would lie about this, particularly since it makes sense.

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I assume that we can rule out the polymerizing oils like linseed , tung and walnut since they harden by curing, and form an impermeable barrier to any further ingress of oil (of any description) regardless of the number of applications.

I'm not assuming anything, Murray. I'm just passing along what he told me.

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I would also be intrigued to know how any luthier could unerringly attribute the failure of a neck/fretboard joint to over-application of oil (of any description).

I really did push a hot button with you there somehow, didn't I?

Sorry about that. But I stand by what I wrote. "Unerringly" is your description, not mine. I was and am simply pointing out that putting a lot of oil onto a guitar fingerboard on a regular basis can lead to problems eventually as it seeps through the wood, and that it's not a wise practice to do so more than once or twice a year, if then.

Hope that makes more sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Jaden]

I think it’s a bad idea. Traps dirt and gunk on the fretboard and can lead to build up next to frets. A clean cotton cloth is all that is necessary to wipe down the fretboard.

[baw3]

I beg to differ. I have been using 10w30 Quaker state for years. I don't even wipe off the excess so I don't have to apply but about every 20 years. I can't believe how much faster I can play and talk about reducing string squeak.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

...I have never used anything on the fret board except a slightly damp cloth. I have not had an issue with the wood drying out at all.

Me too. Always used a damp cloth and never any polish. No problems, no expense and no special supplies to keep track of either.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Honestly, Murray, I don't know whether the type of oil matters: it's the amount that counts. And it doesn't need to "dissolve" the glue, all it has to do is seep through the wood fibers and get between the wood of the fingerboard and the adhesive holding it to the wood of the neck.

It's a gradual process.

Here's an easy experiment for you: soak some wood in oil, really saturate it, then try to glue another piece of wood to it.

As for my source for this information, it was my longtime guitar repairman Robert Howard, who's now in his late 60's, who started working professionally as a guitar repairman while still in his teens. It was him who told me how over the years oil can penetrate through the wood and cause adhesion problems with both the fingerboard & neck glue joint, and - if applied sloppily - to the finish on the neck itself.

He's had to try to rescue a lot of guitars over the years, and those folks who regularly slather oil on their fingerboards have sometimes had the delamination problem I described in my earlier post. An overly enthusiastic application of oil can also eventually cause finish problems alongside the edge of the fingerboard.

Much of the information I've passed along on these forum threads over the years has originated with Robert. He isn't one for myths or Internet BS. As a rule, the information on the technical aspects of stringed instruments that he's taught me has been completely reliable.

So I see no reason why he would lie about this, particularly since it makes sense.



I'm not assuming anything, Murray. I'm just passing along what he told me.



I really did push a hot button with you there somehow, didn't I?

Sorry about that. But I stand by what I wrote. "Unerringly" is your description, not mine. I was and am simply pointing out that putting a lot of oil onto a guitar fingerboard on a regular basis can lead to problems eventually as it seeps through the wood, and that it's not a wise practice to do so more than once or twice a year, if then.

Hope that makes more sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

Hi Wade, if I sounded confrontational I apologize ...it's just that people use the catch-all description "oil" for different substances which vary greatly in their properties, hence my inquiry as to which "oil" would be responsible for fretboard delamination.

I would be vastly surprised if any of the drying oils I mentioned above would ever have caused fretboard instability ... in fact I would expect quite the reverse. Their polymerisation on the surface of the wood creates a barrier to any further ingress of oil once the first application has cured....any further application creates a build up, and does not lead to further penetration.

So that pretty much leaves us with mineral oil, and non-drying vegetable oils as the culprits (presumably nobody would slather engine sump oil on their fretboards.)

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Here's an easy experiment for you: soak some wood in oil, really saturate it, then try to glue another piece of wood to it.

Nice try, Wade (you rascal you )... ... but I'm not falling for that one!

I have a better idea for an experiment, which I will implement this week. I will vacuum glue an ash veneer (.020" thick) to a substrate of MDF using Titebond, and after a week or so, I will start applying mineral oil to one part of the veneer, and boiled linseed oil to the other, and will give a fresh liberal application every day. It will be interesting to see how long it takes before delamination occurs.

[Wade Hampton]

Murray, from what Robert told me it's my understanding that the main time you really have problems with this is when you have to remove the fretboard for whatever reason and then try to reglue it to the neck. The same problem arises if the the fingerboard has to be replaced, for example if it's been planed repeatedly to the point where it's gotten too thin.

The moral of the story, as usual, is "moderation in all things." In other words, don't go hog-wild applying oil to the fingerboard and bridge, but use it sparingly, and chances are that problems won't arise. Slather it on, and down the road there might be problems.


whm

[brianmay]

Originally Posted by alnico5

I have used lemon oil for 50 years, but only once or twice a year, never at each string change.

Aha, but I change my (Elixir Nanowebs) two or three times a year - and Lemon Oil the ebony fretboard and bridge EVERY string change.

As for the oiled wood, it looks fabulous, even wiped almost dry.

[Athens]

Here's Dave Doll's video about cleaning and polishing. Look at the 3:50 mark to hear him talk about 3in1 oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjWM...4#action=share

I think I'd be careful about getting it on the finished areas of the guitar as it is a petroleum based product and may eat into some finishes.

[DesertTwang]

Oiling at every string change is way too often, as others have pointed out. Why Martin suggests 3-in-1 oil, I have no idea. I'm sure it's fine for the guitar, but the smell?? Yikes. Maybe for those who are really into hotrods and don't mind their guitars smelling like a garage. I use Roche-Thomas oil, for no other reason than its cheap price (5 bucks) and the fact that it explicitly says "Fingerboard Oil," which takes all the guesswork out of the equation:

https://www.rochethomas.com/p-163-pr...d-oil-2oz.aspx

[tadol]

From Collings site -

Collings guitars are finished with multiple coats of high-grade lacquer, hand-sanded between applications to bring out a deep shine. The resultant finish is thin, durable and acoustically compatible. The best way to preserve this finish is to keep it clean – wiping off perspiration and fingerprints with a soft, damp (not wet) cloth. Old, soft cotton baby diapers make excellent guitar cleaning cloths. While there are many commercial guitar cleaners available, we feel that a rag slightly dampened with plain tap water and thoroughly wrung out will remove most dirt. Then buff with dry clean cloth. If you must use commercial products, avoid those with solvents, silicones or abrasives. Remember: polishing is not cleaning. Polishes remove finish along with dirt. Fingerboards can occasionally dry out, but require only a very small amount of boiled linseed oil (thoroughly buffed) to restore. Less is always best.

From Santa Cruz - (edited)

Cleaning, Oiling and Polishing - After playing your guitar, it is wise to take a soft polishing cloth and clean off the instrument. Pay special attention to areas where you may have accumulations of sweat, such as the area where your arm rests on the guitar. Sweat will etch the lacquer and will cause permanent hazing of the finish, which can only be repaired by a talented technician. Once a month or so, you can use a polish, wax, or a commercial guitar cleaner to remove any buildup that was left behind from the clean cloth.
Always be sure to confirm that whatever product you are using is safe for nitrocellulose finish. We recommend Santa Cruz Fine Instrument Wax to protect the gloss lacquer finish of your guitar. Do not apply it to the fingerboard, and do not get it too close to the pickguard, heel cap, tuners or fingerboard extension, where the wax might get lodges and not be easily removed. Only apply the wax to the back of the neck if it has a gloss finish (not a matte finish). Virtuoso Polish and Green Liquid Turtle Wax are acceptable alternatives that are readily available at music shops (Virtuoso) or hardware and auto supply stores (Turtle Wax). It will clean and protect your guitar safely. Be careful not to get any Turtle Wax inside the sound hole, cracks in the lacquer, or edges along the fingerboard extension or around the bridge. It will dry leaving a white line that can be nearly impossible to remove.
There are other commercial specialty cleaners and polishes on the market that may be benign to the finish and work well. However, as we have no knowledge of their formulas, we cannot lend our recommendation to any particular brand. For oiling fingerboards and bridges, we recommend Dr. Duck’s Axe Wax. It is safe for use on finishes, so it is acceptable to have it touch the finish when applying it to the ebony parts. If your neck has a satin finish, it was applied to make the neck faster by reducing drag. Don’t use wax, polish or oils on these necks, as it will diminish this benefit. Use a scratch free cloth dampened with warm water to clean the neck, followed by a dry cloth. Avoid any wax or polish in areas that have cracked or worn finish. Avoid any wax or polish that contains silicone. Silicone resists lacquer adhesion and complicates any finish repair in the future.If you are ever unsure about cleaning products or how to apply them correctly, always contact a professional luthier or repair tech, or feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns.

From Martin Guitar Co -

The best way to clean your instrument is with a warm, damp cloth. This will remove harmful chemicals. Your instrument is coated in the highest grade finish available and is sensitive. Any type of solvent, especially those found in plastic, vinyl and leather straps, will mar the finish, as will alcohol, citric acid, aftershave lotion, insect repellent and a number of related substances. Perspiration can also damage your instrument, so keep it dry. To polish full gloss instruments, use C. F. Martin polish and a clean C. F. Martin polishing cloth. Do not use polish on
a satin finished instrument. It will cause the instrument to have an uneven sheen. We recommend wiping down your instrument and strings with a soft, dry cloth before storing to remove harmful skin oils. Products containing silicone should not be used.

Martin Guitar does not recommend using lemon oil on the fingerboard. The acids in lemon oil break down the finish of your guitar. It may also speed the corrosion of the frets and decrease the life of your strings.


Froggy Bottom guitars -

How should I clean my guitar?

Gently. Avoid polishes containing silicone, abrasives, or wax. A small amount of moisture is okay for removing grime, but moisture should never be used in areas where the lacquer is cracked or damaged in any way. Always use a soft, clean cloth.

Goodall guitars -

The catalyzed urethane finish doesn't need much attention- just keep it reasonably clean. Use a 100% cotton cloth slightly moistened with water to wipe and clean the body and neck. I don't advise using too much wax or guitar polish - use sparingly if at all. A tiny bit of automotive paste wax such as Turtle Wax or Meguires is okay occasionally.

Once a year or so, depending on use, you may want to remove the strings and clean the fretboard and frets. Use #0000 steel wool and rub with the grain up and down the fretboard, being careful not to touch (scratch) the finish on the top. It isn't really necessary but if you want to, you can apply a few drops of fretboard oil on to the fret board and bridge with a paper towel. You can purchase fretboard oil at most music stores or through mail order.

[AZLiberty]

I have a large bottle of mineral oil I got from home depot for conditioning cutting boards and wooden kitchen utensils.

A few drops on the fretboard every couple of years. I've bought used instruments where the fretboard and bridge were horribly dried out, and a little mineral oil darkened the ebony or rosewood considerably.

[M Hayden]

Originally Posted by baw3

I beg to differ. I have been using 10w30 Quaker state for years. I don't even wipe off the excess so I don't have to apply but about every 20 years. I can't believe how much faster I can play and talk about reducing string squeak.

Add anti-seize for that extra-smooth speed

[Rpt50]

Not sure where I heard it, but that link above with Bob Taylor's recommendation is what I've been doing for roughly 40 years. I've also noticed the same thing he talks about--you may start out doing it a couple times per year, but after the first couple of applications it does not need it as often.

For those that have never tired it--go on and take a chance. I think it makes far more of a difference in how a guitar plays than a lot of the stuff that gets talked about on this site!

[fazool]

Originally Posted by fazool

...The fluids from your finger....mostly sweat chemicals (minerals, urea, lactic acid, ammonia, water, etc.). Fingers don't "oil" wood.

Originally Posted by fazool

Lemon oil is not true "lemon". It is merely lemon scented mineral oil...

Martin is about my favorite historical American manufacturing company. I admire them so much.

I'm also not afraid to say they are wrong and fully prepared to dismiss when they give bad information.

....

Originally Posted by tadol

...
From Martin Guitar Co -

...remove harmful skin oils. ...

Martin Guitar does not recommend using lemon oil on the fingerboard. The acids in lemon oil break down the finish of your guitar. It may also speed the corrosion of the frets and decrease the life of your strings.
...

Like I said, just because Martin said it doesn't mean they are correct.

Sweat and secretions from your hand does contain some oily material but the majority is harmful excreted chemicals via sweat.

Lemon Oil is not from lemons, it is lemon scented mineral oil. There is a true lemon extract oil that contains a citric solvent that is bad for wood, but that is exceedingly rare and not what is meant by "lemon oil".

Even Martin can be confused.