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  #16  
Old 01-07-2006, 07:14 PM
dreamsinger dreamsinger is offline
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Blame the band. The last time I played in a P&W band we played what the minister wanted *but* we played it *how* we wanted. It was an exceptional group of musicians, some of whom making a living at secular music. We had a gift for taking some of the most tired, cliched examples of CCM and funkin' it up enough that even your whitehaired grandma couldn't help "feeling the spirit". The church lost us and wound up with volunteers who were a bit more "compliant" than we were not to mention rather amateurish. The sad truth is that there a lot of barely mediocre players who justify their GAS by playing in a safe, accepting environment every Sunday. Even the best music sucks if it's not played well.
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  #17  
Old 01-07-2006, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsinger
Blame the band. The last time I played in a P&W band we played what the minister wanted *but* we played it *how* we wanted. It was an exceptional group of musicians, some of whom making a living at secular music. We had a gift for taking some of the most tired, cliched examples of CCM and funkin' it up enough that even your whitehaired grandma couldn't help "feeling the spirit". The church lost us and wound up with volunteers who were a bit more "compliant" than we were not to mention rather amateurish. The sad truth is that there a lot of barely mediocre players who justify their GAS by playing in a safe, accepting environment every Sunday. Even the best music sucks if it's not played well.
LOL. Talk about missing the point of what it's about entirely. My amateurish mediocre bass player has more of a heart for service and worship than most people I know. I'll take him any day over some accomplished musicians that think it's all about them, their egos, and their abilities. Don't need em. That's not at all what it's about. At risk of this turning into yet another theological debate however, I'll leave it at that. Peace.
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  #18  
Old 01-07-2006, 07:38 PM
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I think there are a combination of factors. You have to keep things simple when you are dealing with a band of volunteers with highly varied skill levels, and only a limited amount of time to practice, combined with volunteers running sound on equipment that may not be the greatest. Plus, since you are aiming for audience participation instead of entertainment, you have to keep things fairly predictable so people can concentrate on the worship instead of where the band is going next. I am blessed to play in a praise band with some very skilled musicians (much more so than me), but beside the prelude and the special music, we mostly stick to what is playing on popular Christian radio, because that is what people know and like to sing with.
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  #19  
Old 01-07-2006, 08:14 PM
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Many times, when a church hires a music director, they get college trained vocal majors or performance majors. That was the way to go if you were trying to run a choir but the face of CCM has shifted heavily and you need a leader with actual real world rock band experience to properly pull off rock band based CCM stuff like you hear on the radio. Most colleges don't teach that and frankly, finding a rock musician who is dedicated enough to spend the time required to lead a group of people is not easy. On top of that, finding one who can work well with the pastor to make music fit the message...that is really tough.

The days of the lame CCM stuff is over. A lot of great stuff has come out in the last 10 years. The problem is, most churches buy from places like Word Publishing and Lileanas Publishing and by the time it hits a book, it is old news.
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  #20  
Old 01-07-2006, 10:13 PM
geardaddy geardaddy is offline
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thanks to all who've responded. there's more to this than what I thought...sounds like a pretty tough balancing act. I have seen my old church struggle with this, and I guess I feel like there's a lot of good musicians in this particular congregation who could really bring folks in (like for instance the young unchurched...) but they are handcuffed with bad arrangements, or "older" hymns which have been set to a "contempo beat". I like what dreamsinger wrote, and I think it rings true to a large extent in my experience. Anyway, music is about spirit, and so to some extent people who are playing must be allowed some artistic license...maybe like some pentecostals allow open prayer...actually to me the music should be a song-prayer...eh? Cheers!! bill
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  #21  
Old 01-08-2006, 12:44 AM
jonahdsage jonahdsage is offline
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i think the cheap grace that christianity throws around these days is a big part of why so much is lacking musically fromso many churches and, in my opinion more so, in contemporary christian music. everyone is so afraid to say something is bad because the music and hopefully the musician is trying to worship god, it doesn't matter what you do/say it's how you do or say it, right? it's like people are afraid to say to someone "hey man, you need to practice this this and this" or just be critical about it. there's a real lack of sincerity, originality and tradition in much of church music these days. i remember a pastor at a church i was helping over the summer asked me "what are you going to do when we have 200 people at this service and people want to help out with the music?" and i said "well i would say we don't have any openings in the band, so thanks but we don't need the help." i can imagine some people disagreeing with me here, but christians to me in general just seem afraid to be confrontational or anything but nice and easy going. i could rant forever, and i know some churches with really excellent music programs, but in general christian music is really poor in my opinion.

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  #22  
Old 01-08-2006, 12:54 AM
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Well Joe F., having a "heart for service and worship" is a great thing especially when you have no other choices but it doesn't do much to ameliorate the "suck" factor. As sad and cynical as it may sound, the quality of musicianship has a bearing on the attendance, and by extension, the financial health of a church. I got that little tidbit straight from Jesse Duplantis. Sorry, but that's what I think OP was talking about.
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2006, 01:05 AM
dreamsinger dreamsinger is offline
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I agree with you Jonah. One of the things that breaks my heart is to see a congregation of 200 with 15 people on the platform playing good guitars badly and out of tune. Having to pass an audition is not unheard of in church music but the tradition seems to have gotten lost in a lot of churches doing the CCM thing.
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2006, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cominghome419
Really, how "good" the music is isnt the point and isnt why those songs are written.

I don't disagree necessarily, especially if you are making the valid point that liturgy is not entertainment and should not be evaluated in terms of a concert performance.

But ... my personal experience has been that people usually say things like that to defend some sloppy practice I'm trying to clean up. I remember asking an ad hoc singing group to pencil in (and observe!) breath marks on their music, and getting the objection, "but the congregation isn't all going to breath in the same place so we don't need to do that" from one singer who routinely objects to any suggestion that their act could be improved.

It would have been very easy to snap, "so can you explain to me how bad practice makes things any *easier* for the congregation?" Bless me Father, for I (for once) bit my lip.
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2006, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonahdsage
i think the cheap grace that christianity throws around these days ...
WOW! We're really cheap at my church...we tell people it's free!
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  #26  
Old 01-08-2006, 05:41 AM
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Funny thing is, this isn't a new problem. C.S. Lewis referred to church music as '5th rate poetry set to 6th rate music,' or something like that. I'm abivalent about the mainstream popularity of worship music -- when I hear a great worship song sandwiched between pop Jesus boy-bands and teenaged wailers on Christian radio, I fear that 'worship' is becoming another consumer product -- and valid, meaningful expressions of worship quickly become 'dated' as the next new artist releases the next new song. A lot of worship music, imo, 'sucks' because it is written by people churning out the next big hit single (sorry, vineyard folks, but the vineyard usa stuff is pretty formulaic) and not focusing on things like reflection, scriptural depth, and musical texture. (I say this after playing an entire set last night and realizing halfway through that every song in the set was written for a cut capo in the key of 'e'. . . )

Done ranting -- it (leading worship) is still my greatest source of release and expression as a minister, and I'm probably the kingpin 'sucker,' so I have no room to talk. .
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2006, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnjp
WOW! We're really cheap at my church...we tell people it's free!
IME grace has never been free...
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2006, 06:48 AM
tadmania tadmania is offline
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There is a balance to strike with music in worship, but I believe the fulcrum is often misplaced.. to the disservice of all.

Poorly played music has an effect on the listeners, just as a poorly spoken sermon,a poorly built church building, a poorly prepared meal, or a poorly printed Bible might have on those who are to partake of, read, or occupy these things.

While the point of worship is not performance, it is consistent with the goals of worship to perform the elements of praise in deference to both the worshipers and the Worshiped, reflecting the quality of the Worshiped via the quality of the worship acts.

We don't let kids regularly prepare meals for the congregation (unless it is Overcooked Spaghetti night)

We don't distribute photocopied and unbound issues of Scripture as "good enough" because some of our folks like to run the Xerox machine.

We do not allow unskilled, unschooled, or unprepared folks to speak from the pulpit, though there are many who believe they have the skill and temperament to do so.

So it is with music, we should ensure its quality so as to foster the relaization of its intended purpose, especially if it is to retain its central place in modern congregation (and the place of music is second only to the sermon itself in many assemblies). That there are those who cannot participate as they might prefer.... why should music be any different than these other elements?
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  #29  
Old 01-08-2006, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsinger
Well Joe F., having a "heart for service and worship" is a great thing especially when you have no other choices but it doesn't do much to ameliorate the "suck" factor. As sad and cynical as it may sound, the quality of musicianship has a bearing on the attendance, and by extension, the financial health of a church. I got that little tidbit straight from Jesse Duplantis. Sorry, but that's what I think OP was talking about.

And I'll concede that you do have valid points. I guess it boils down to what a church has for it's priorities. If church attendance growth and increasing the pot in the collection plate is the goal, then by all means, hire John Mayer for your guitarist and Marcus Miller for your bass player. I do agree that the music can be lacking in some cases just due to lack of talent.

To further the point however. Let's say say we have to choose between pastors, one who is a man of God, has a heart for service and worship, loves his congregation, loves his Lord, but is not the greatest public speaker. He may hesitate between points, lose his place etc.. That may distract some from worship, but they get past it. The second pastor is just a highly skilled public speaker. He doesn't care whether the message is true or not, it's just his job to deliver it with flair and polish. He is witty, can keep you on the edge of your seat with his anecdotes etc.., but could care less whether you are understanding the message. I've seen both. I'll take the first one with all his flaws.

In our church, we have made the decision that we will not make doctrinal sacrifices in the interest of attendance. We see every member of our music team as a Worship Leader/Minister, meaning they cannot lead worship unless they themselves are worshipping. This takes priority over their skill level. We had a drummer stop by one day and tell us he wouldn't mind playing with us. He had no beliefs of convictions of any kinds however and said that he would more often than not want to leave as soon as the music was over. He may have been a great drummer, but he was not qualified to be a worship leader.

I have to work with a bass player who has 9 months experience, a drummer who is 15, and a pianist who is classically trained and had never seen a chord chart in her life before she came to play iwth us. Still, we turn out some great music, which is part of the message and a function of worship, not of entertainment and showmanship. The song "Walk By Faith" in my sig, was done by this rag tag band of amateurs. The sax player is an accountant. It may be popcorn bubblegum fair to some, but it's just a sampling of a wide variety of music we have tackled, practiced, and mastered, all for a common cause.

Your preferences may vary, but again, it's all a matter of what you are trying to accomplish and I don't judge or fault you for your thoughts and opinion.

Off to do some of that music right now actually! Cheers.

Last edited by Joe F; 01-08-2006 at 11:59 AM.
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  #30  
Old 01-08-2006, 07:54 AM
sirflyguy2000 sirflyguy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geardaddy
Reading people's signatures on this forum, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a lot of folks are christians...so my question is this: why does "contemporary" church music suck so bad? My personal opinion is that music ministers have no taste in music, and people in these bands basically are stuck playing what the director wants. these guys seem to be typically a little nerdy, and into vocal stuff, and don't really understand...anybody got any opinions, re: this? My old church started becoming very musically oriented over the past 5 years, and I just couldn't bare to sit through it anymore...so what is up??, bill
Not a valid assumption, IMO. Maybe that is all you have ever seen, but it is not a sweeping generalization that is valid. Lots of places are doing cool music.
Now, here is someting to think about: Some older established churches have a diverse membership. This means a music person has to "please" a lot of people. Therefore, it can't be what many of us would consider "cool" music all the time. Everyone has to have some give regarding this.
In your defense: there are some churches with absolutely horrible music. By the same token, there are some secular bands that are horrible as well. There is a lot of bad stuff to go around in all genres of music!
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