#61
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I do try to preserve an original ivory nut, and removing it is required if I want to shim under it or to level the fingerboard. Besides accommodating taller frets, nuts can also be shimmed to compensate for wear of the slots. However, I like to avoid trimming the top of the nut, and assuming that the replacement frets are not too tall, raising the strings can be accomplished by filling the nut slots and recutting them. My favorite method for doing this is to deepen and square the bottom of the slot, and glue in a sliver of ivory with CA. Then the slot is recut to the proper depth. This can be done with the nut in place. My point on this subject is that in my experience, heating has been sufficient to remove a stubborn nut in 99+% of the cases, rendering the saw kerf unnecessary. |
#62
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The growing gap
To say I'm "walking on eggshells" here is an understatement. We've already established "who knows what" and I'm at the bottom of the pile. That said, it's my thread, so I want to reintroduce the notion of "the growing gap" behind the nut.
I hate to see you "mythical figures" dustin' up here. These exchanges are amazingly instructive, so for the sake of clarity and enlightened discussion, I want to interject the following (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong): 1. Let's say a tech cuts a .010" saw kerf behind a nut, so when he whacks that nut it can move/rock enough to break the existing glue joint.I think this is how others meant the term, and I'm 99% sure it was not intended to suggest that Frank Ford's initial saw kerf might widen over time... Am I right? Last edited by BothHands; 11-17-2014 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Peace & Goodwill |
#63
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No. Frank was very clear about using this on "stuck" nuts, not every nut. He was equally clear that when he makes a new nut and attaches it, it is attached in such a way that it will not be "stuck" and will not require cutting it out again.
Leave it alone: it works for him and his customers and has for decades. What is there to argue about? If you don't like the technique, don't use it. There is no objective "right" and "wrong" here, despite the war of egos. Move along: these aren't the droids you're looking for. |
#64
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Frank recommended his saw-kerf method to me based on my nut being captive between fretboard end and a particularly heavy headstock face plate. There has been no discussion as to how my particular nut is glued in, because I have no idea... There has been a lot of discussion (among you all) since Frank's initial remarks. In the course of all that, the "growing gap" concept arose, and if my take on it is correct, then it's something that deserves clarification and consideration, at least by me before I attempt it. Maybe I missed reading a post, but as far as I can see, the "growing gap" issue remains unclear as it pertains to my situation. I would like to know if my understanding of it is the correct understanding (per my post above). Your "leave it alone" admonishment seems to suggest that I re-raised the issue for the purpose of annoying Frank, or others(?) Not what I had in mind. |
#65
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The idea I got from Frank's 'behind the nut cut' was that it was done so that the nut was not damaged in removal and could therefore be re-used and not replaced. When the nut was back in position the cut would not need to be redone for any subsequent removal. There was no reason for the cut to 'grow'.
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#66
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With any luck, Hizself will check this thread and clarify the point. |
#67
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I think the point is that the kerf would protect the corners of the head plate. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that type of fix. The problem with a lot of these guitars like Gibson's etc.. is they glue the hell out of the nuts and then even apply finish all over them. Nut's should never be treated as permanent fixtures, along those lines that's why I tend to like unbound fretboards better too but I digress (since it's not quite the same argument). Once you remove a nut like that and install it properly, with a dot of CA/Fish/Titebond/Hide or any glue of your choice besides epoxy then it's simple enough to remove it with a block of wood and a tap with a hammer.
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#68
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In my case, the nut is set in a gap created by the edge of the fretboard and the headstock faceplate/veneer, which is about 1/8" thick. Q1. In your opinion (ANYBODY), do I need to employ Frank Ford's technique of cutting a very narrow saw kerf behind the nut before tapping it? If so, exactly WHY? To protect the nut? To protect the faceplate as suggested above? OR...to allow for movement in breaking the glue joint? Q2. If I do make the kerf, should I endeavor to make a replacement nut that fully fills that now-wider kerf? Q3. Assuming I do what's described in Q2 above, what happens next time I want to remove that wider replacement nut? Will I have to cut another kerf behind that new nut in order to remove it? Assume I glue the replacement nut in per redir's instructions above. I don't mean to be a PIA about this. I'm just trying to understand exactly what people mean so I can get the best possible result while doing the least possible damage. Last edited by BothHands; 11-17-2014 at 09:53 AM. |
#69
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#70
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Now if the nut is too high, you can lower the slots. If it's too low you can buy bone shims. Finally if you do decide to replace the nut, make it for a snug slip fit. I use a sparing amount of white glue. |
#71
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"The nut appears be a tight/exact fit for the gap in which it sits" nope. i see plenty of room to work with here. but first, have you fully determined that this nut is not coming out after using all of the usual methods? is it really that stuck? What methods have you tried so far? Q1 No. IMO it would be used as a last resort to protect an ancient nut and to allow room to break the joint. Apparently a controversial method. I do not think that this is the case on your modern guitar nor necessary for it. Q2 Yep, that's the idea. Q3 hopefully not. that would be silly. honestly, i don't glue down nuts that are set into a slot like yours. if it is crafted correctly it won't roll out, and if the fit is snug enough, it won't fall out when fully unstrung nor shift sideways either. fwiw, if this is truly the mission impossible nut that no normal methods of removal will ever work, -then saw it down the middle (80~90% deep, but not through it), clear all contact faces (veneer, fretboard, neck) with a scalpel, grab it and pluck it out and make a new one. it's not that hard. Last edited by arie; 11-17-2014 at 10:40 AM. |
#72
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Thanks, Louie and arie. I just wanted that clarification BEFORE I start tapping...and then WHACKING the nut. You know how it goes: It's the Bigger Hammer Phenomenon, and it just sorta grows of its own volition, beyond your awareness. Next thing you know, that headstock faceplate is all splintered and mashed up, and you can't figure out how such a thing could happen...
I'll employ the saw-kerf-behind-the-nut method as a last resort. |
#73
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you might be suffering from "IFITA" -Internet Forum Induced Technology Anxiety. slow down and proceed carefully with the easiest/least invasive method first and work from there as the need arises. you can do this. Last edited by arie; 11-17-2014 at 12:02 PM. |
#74
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But actually, I think I'm a carrier for that. LOL! Good advice though - all of it. Thanks, man. |
#75
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The picture of the nut you linked to looks like it will easily come out. My nut removal tool consists of a piece of wood approximately as wide as the nut, 1/4 inch thick, about 6in long and a dead blow hammer. The short side that is the width of the nut gets placed flush right up against it along the fretboard and then you give it a gentle whack and look for any movement increasing the pressure as necessary till it moves. Then come back to the opposite side and tap it. Continue to tap it back and forth till it is free.
I still like to glue nuts in place even though they fit snugly but it's probably not necessary. I've just always done it as an extra added measure. It's not really comparable to a saddle since that is the main control over the action it's going to get more adjustments and hence need to be removed more often. Once a quality bone nut is set up you have many many years ahead before it's necessary to repair. I still don't like to finish them in place though. |