Worlds first X-braced violin demonstrates problem in X-bracing a guitar

[jazzer44]

This is the 300 year anniversary of the end of the golden era of violin (1700 - 1720) and for fun I cross-braced a violin to see what could be learned and applied to guitar, possibly creating the world's first and only X-braced violin.
Master luthier made violins of the Golden Era exemplify meaning of high end instrument by selling for $100,000s to $millions today and they provided strict rules on how a fiddle is to be made. For this experiment I broke the rules by altering a late 1800s factory made French violin.
Pic below shows the new crossed brace on angle and faint white longitudinal line where old brace sat. New brace is tap tuned and the bass-side bridge-foot sits atop the brace as it's supposed to. FYI all violins have just the one long brace on the bass side, and a soundpost on the treble side (see GoogleImages). This is similar to archtop guitars which have 2 such longitudinal braces and no soundpost.


The soundpost (pics below) got crossed over with help of couple small blocks to hold it in place. Admittedly this portion is nothing like a guitar brace but at least I got the base of it seated on the opposite side, so technically it diverts treble tones to bass side of instrument. However for this experiment as it relates to guitar I focused on the bass notes because that top brace is similar to that of an X braced guitar.

This pic is mock up not the actual soundpost


This is actual sound post just was harder to photograph.


The new sound didn't seem that much different at first, and on the plus side the low end may have improved (could be from how I tuned the bass bar and not its positioning). However, no matter what adjustments were made I was unable to achieve a clear ring tone. So an open G string (bottom string) pulsates as it rings. In comparison a different old French violin - unaltered - had a much clearer (truer) ring tone and it also seemed easier to play.

The lack of clear ring tone may be caused by the positioning of the brace which diverts bass tones to treble side. It could also be due to inconsistent mass along the center line resulting from the brace being angled. It could be for other unknown reasons. In any case, the master luthiers of the Golden Era did NOT cross the bracing as I did.

[zoopeda]

Good thing violins aren't x braced, I guess. I fail to see how this experiment translates to guitar since they're such structurally different instruments. Obviously if you put violin bracing on a guitar, it would explode...

[fazool]

flawed experiment

[SpruceTop]

I wonder how a Taylor-style V-Class Brace would affect the violin's tone? Sorry, it was coming anyway but I got to it first! Thanks, Jazzer, for taking the time and effort to do your interesting experiment!

[Taylor Ham]

Speaking from a tone standpoint, I get the Martin tone. It's also the standard by which other guitars are currently judged, at least in America. No surprise since they've been doing a good job for a long time.

And, if your standard is Martin, then of course nothing will fit the bill except a martin or derivative design. Nothing wrong with that either. Guitar afficionados are a very traditional bunch it seems.

The X brace arose as a structural solution, not as a tool to improve tone. That said, having become ubiquitous, the tone it shapes has become flat top standard.

Speaking from an engineering standpoint though, archtop parallel tailpiece instruments take better advantage of the material properties of wood than flat top X braced glued bridge. No question about it.

There's currently no point in arguing which tone is better because neither side will change.

[srick]

The string tension on a violin is far, far, lower than a guitar. The soundboard is carved and arched, not flat like a steel-string guitar, and the surface area is much, much less.

I made a similar error long ago when I was a teen and built dulcimers. I figured the bracing would help, just like on a guitar. I was wrong - on that scale, and with that tension, no bracing was needed.

That being said, if you don't experiment, you will never learn anything new! So I give you credit for trying it out!

[L20A]

Interesting experiment.
How are mandolins braced?

[Taylor Ham]

Another contributing factor is the rest of the bracing. The top is a system and the main X brace is not the only variable. The tone bars IMO are not as compatible for making 'true tone' and the varying directional stiffness of the top contributes to 'swirl sound'. Except some people might like swirl sound haha. Even me, though when I see X bracing and structurally optimal in the same sentence I cringe.

[Taylor Ham]

Originally Posted by L20A

Interesting experiment.

How are mandolins braced?

Neapolitan mandolins are different, but American ones pioneered by gibson alongside the early archtop guitars were supposed to have no bracing. Tone bars were added in an upside down V brace or parallel.

[Shuksan]

X-braced violin? Where's the X? I see only a single diagonal brace. I don't see how crossing over the sound post makes this an x-braced violin in any way that would be relevant to x-braced guitars.

I fail to see how any of this applies to a flat top acoustic guitar.

[lar]

My understanding is that the thickness of a guitar top is typically about 1/10th of an inch (a little less for classical guitars). Out of curiosity, what is the thickness of a violin top?

[emuhunter]

Well, credit where credit is due: you certainly know what you dislike (and like) and seem to have a focused agenda to explain it. Although I disagree with your perspective thank you for the education.

[jazzer44]

Originally Posted by srick

The string tension on a violin is far, far, lower than a guitar. The soundboard is carved and arched, not flat like a steel-string guitar, and the surface area is much, much less.

I made a similar error long ago when I was a teen and built dulcimers. I figured the bracing would help, just like on a guitar. I was wrong - on that scale, and with that tension, no bracing was needed.

That being said, if you don't experiment, you will never learn anything new! So I give you credit for trying it out!

Not sure I understand Rick. Are you saying that violins don't need bracing? because they all have a bass bar and a soundpost. I simply crossed the bass bar.

But speaking of no bracing instruments, I had a 1942 Epiphone Zephyr guitar with arched top and back, and it had absolutely no bracing inside whatsoever. Was built in early days of electric guitar and I believe Django Reinhardt played one in his only N. American tour around that time. Despite the pickup it was a wonderful guitar.

[peter.coombe]

How are mandolins braced?

That depends on what sort of mandolin you are referring to.

Gibson and Lyon and Healy oval sound hole mandolins have a cross brace just behind the sound hole. The Gibson Loars use longitudinal "sound bar" bracing. Steve Gilchrist developed his X bracing, although he was not the first, and many others have followed. Gibson army navy flat top mandolins have a cross brace directly underneath the bridge and another cross brace under the fingerboard. Graham McDonald uses a H brace on his flat top mandolins as described in his book. Bowlbacks have a cross brace under the bridge and usually another cross brace in front of the bridge and another one under the fingerboard. Some have one cross brace at an angle. Some makers have experimented with carbon fibre lattice bracing with varying degrees of success. I use X bracing because I like the sound I get with an X brace.

Research has shown that mandolins vibrate similar to guitars, so what applies to mandolins can be applied to guitars and visa versa. That is not the case with violins.