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Looking for experiences re: Lowden neck reset
My early 90s O-10 has a rather low saddle and I'd like to have the neck reset. It's very difficult to find info online regarding this procedure - I've read everything from "it's impossible, saw it off and install a new one" to "the joint is very tight and difficult to separate" to "it's a standard dovetail, straightforward job"
One of the resources that keeps coming up is a luthier in Vancouver named Nicole Alosinac. I sent her an email this morning but I gather she's very good and very busy, so it might be a while before she gets back to me. Here she shows a pic of a successful reset she performed on an O-25 from the same era as mine: Despite the low saddle, I have mine strung with mediums and play it aggressively down into C based tunings with great success. I want to have the reset done as an investment in the guitar's future but I'm also considering installing a Barbera Soloist and I want to be sure the geometry is good before I choose the wrong Soloist height. The "low" option that Rich offers is just a hair shorter than my stock saddles. Anyone out there in AGF land that can speak with direct experience regarding a Lowden neck reset? |
#2
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Contact Lowden directly: they should know their own product and should be able to advise you regarding neck resets on their instruments.
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#3
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Thanks Charles, I had already done so prior to posting and am waiting for a response. Thought I'd check here as well
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#4
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I’m in MSP, and Jed Germond did a reset on my O32 a few years back. He had no issues. Charged me $400. PM me if you want his contact info.
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#5
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I kinda got screwed with a trade for a Lowden guitar from the 90s. The guitar sounded good but it had issues that were not disclosed and I was foolish not to fully vet the guitar. Regardless, I brought the guitar in to a well respected local tech/luthier and he did not see any issues in regards to resetting the neck. I should have it back in another week or so.
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David Webber Round-Body Furch D32-LM MJ Franks Lagacy OM Rainsong H-WS1000N2T Stonebridge OM33-SR DB Stonebridge D22-SRA Tacoma Papoose Voyage Air VAD-2 1980 Fender Strat A few Partscaster Strats MIC 60s Classic Vib Strat |
#6
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This is George Lowden's reply in 2003 to neck reset question:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...s/topics/15099 Perhaps I can answer this: The usual problems which eventually result in a neck reset are:- 1) The neck angle coming up over a period of time due to the compression of the 'shoulders' of the dovetail under long term string tension, 2) sinkage of the sound-hole area as the guitar soundboard is compressed length-wise under string tension, (this also changes the neck / sound-box geometry) 3)... rarely.. the neck angle not being right in the first place! 4) ....rarely again... the permanent swelling or shrinkage of the soundboard, causing the bridge to either rise or fall to a significant extent. Sometimes a neck reset can be necessary when a mild & combined case of some of these problems occurs. Back in the mid '70s when I was designing the Lowden guitar ( at that stage the O series only) I noticed a tendency for some of these problems to happen pretty early on, so I developed a number of solutions as follows: 1) The dovetail joint compression: I removed the gap at the front of the dovetail always present in production guitars and I made sure that the shoulders of the dovetail matched the curvature of the guitar sides. This increased the surface contact area within the dovetail very significantly and eliminated neck angle instability through dovetail movement, totally......HOWEVER.. it also made it infinitely more difficult to inject steam to loosen the joint to remove it, if something did go wrong! The gaps present in other acoustics both contributed to the potential need for a neck reset.... and also facilitated the reset itself because the gaps in the joint made it easier to loosen the joint! I took the view that it is better to eliminate the causes of neck resets in the first place. I am also aware that maximum wood to wood contact within a guitar, helps promote sustain, amongst other things. Note, the gap at the front of the dovetail and the scalloping away of the shoulders of the neck, both make it easier and quicker to fit a dovetail joint in a factory situation. 2) I designed the A frame bracing (1976-1977) with two structural braces running down either side of the sound-hole (so stabilising it) and continuing up under the fingerboard actually into the dovetail joint itself so that the neck wood actually butt joints with the A frame bracing at the face of the dovetail. Sound-hole sinkage was also eliminated as a result.... and the neck had a direct link with the soundboard bracing itself (no bad thing) A couple of other companies introduced A - frame bracing in the early nineties, but I am given to understand that they do not actually continue the braces the whole way into the dovetail itself. 3) Apart from human error from time to time, generally the neck angle on early Lowdens was a little flatter (about 0.75mm positive measured at nut) whereas over time I gradually increased this to more like 1.25mm positive which creates a higher saddle. This gives more adjustment to lower the action later if it should be necessary. It sounds like the guitar you mention has a slightly flat neck angle. 4) There's not a lot you can do about extremes of humidity or dryness except control the humidity where the guitar is kept. This can have a very marked effect on a guitar's action and sound. if the guitar is too 'wet' the action will be too high (or the saddle too low) and the guitar will sound tight and possibly lose bass. if the guitar is too dry the action could become too low and yet the guitar will sound good (even if it is buzzing a little) Control humidity to about 45 - 55% RH if you can. So where does all this leave you, when considering a Lowden guitar which may need a reset? Firstly, it is difficult to remove most lowden dovetails because there should be no gaps to work with. Therefore experience has shown at the factory that it is less expensive to simply replace the neck itself. However, it seems most likely that the neck angle was always a little flat seeing that neck angles on Lowdens do not tend to move. Therefore if the saddle is just too low then there is another cheaper solution which involves re-working the bridge in situ. The purpose is to lower the position where the strings emerge behind the saddle which means you can lower the saddle and still maintain a good rake angle for the strings. This work takes a couple of hours or so, but is effective where the problem is not too severe. A good repair person can certainly do this without excessive cost ( probably about the price of a re-fret or so). I am available to advise any repairman who needs to carry out this work, Hope this info helps, regards, George
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Danny Olson SJ CED/IRW, Charis SJ SITKA/MAP, Charis SJ ENG/IRW, Charis GC Thinbody SITKA/IRW, Lowden O25c, Larrivee C19, Larrivee OM-03R, Voyage Air VA-OM 04 |
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Quote:
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Danny - thanks for posting this, I found it just the other day and it does contain some interesting info from the source. Cheers! I'm still interesting in hearing first hand accounts from folks who have had a neck reset done on their Lowden. I'm not really into modifying the bridge, or replacing it with a pinned version to achieve more break angle as was suggested by another local repair shop. Next step is to take it back to a very talented local luthier friend and fellow AGFer Ned Milburn (hi Ned!) for another look. |
#8
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Quote:
Me, I'm a pacifist at hart but I do believe in karma. The universe has a way of making things right.
__________________
David Webber Round-Body Furch D32-LM MJ Franks Lagacy OM Rainsong H-WS1000N2T Stonebridge OM33-SR DB Stonebridge D22-SRA Tacoma Papoose Voyage Air VAD-2 1980 Fender Strat A few Partscaster Strats MIC 60s Classic Vib Strat |
#9
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I particularly take issue with "the shoulders of the dovetail matched the curvature of the guitar sides" If the neck heel is tapered, then it behoves the maker to ensure that the contact area between the heel and the sides is absolutely flat, irrespective of the curve of the shoulders. If the neck heel is parallel, then of course it doesn't matter. But the Lowden heels are tapered ... so ...I really don't get what he is trying to say. |
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I should really edit that last post, but will add another.
There may be confusion about the term "shoulders". George Lowden quite correctly uses the term "shoulders" to refer to the components of the neck heel on either side of the tenon, which abut onto the sides , at the top of the upper bout. Some luthiers, infuriatingly, have in the past erroneously referred to these shoulders as "cheeks" , when talking about a reset. The term "shoulders" of course, can also refer to the curved sides of the upper bout .... Hope this clears up any potential confusion |
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I understand what you say, just have the heel area flat. But I suppose that's an aesthetic he doesn't prefer. |
#12
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That said, some guitars are built with sides that are FLAT where the neck joins the body. Some, the sides continue to bend as they intersect the neck. This as well as the fact that the "tail" portion of the dovetail on many guitars has limited (non-full) wood-to-wood contact area. As well, the "shoulders" (or whatever you want to call them) of the heel that contacts the sides, or "ribs" of the guitar, well these shoulders sometimes contact the sides (ribs) only on the outside few mm, rather than full contact. It is pretty easy for me to understand from the writings attributed to George posted above that he aims for full contact wood-to-wood joinery with his dove-tails, and this fullness of wood-to-wood makes it more challenging to remove his necks than more common designs that have a cavity inside the dove-tail. That said, while I understand his (George's) theory, if he is choosing a jointed guitar, it makes sense to build it so it can easily be dis-jointed. Otherwise, just build a solid Spanish style heel. Well made mortise & tenon bolt on necks seem to me to be ideal for non-Spanish heel neck/body joints.
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---- Ned Milburn NSDCC Master Artisan Dartmouth, Nova Scotia |
#13
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changed my mind.
Last edited by charles Tauber; 11-29-2017 at 12:21 AM. |
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How, why, and when, in the luthiery world, the term "cheeks" first became misapplied to the "shoulders" is a mystery. |
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Whatever you call them (cheeks or shoulders), IMHO, compression of the sides (denting) is a non-issue. In order for compression to take place as a result of string tension, the fingerboard would have to shift on the top, and the dovetail glued surfaces would have to come unglued. If either of these actually happens, the neck is loose, and needs to be reglued.
That is not to say that there is not some denting of the sides from undercutting the neck mating surface, but this is not due to string tension, but due to tight fitting when the joint is assembled. This denting is more common on softer woods like mahogany....much less so on rosewood or maple. As someone who has done over 1400 resets in the last 33 years, I absolutely question the practice of leaving no gap at the end of the tenon. IMHO, it does nothing but make the joint much harder to steam apart. My resetting record includes many, many 1920's and 1930's guitars, which are old enough that they should show some evidence of the denting of the sides causing the neck angle to change. I have not seen it. Quote:
Last edited by John Arnold; 11-29-2017 at 05:33 PM. |