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  #61  
Old 10-23-2018, 09:43 AM
Larpy Larpy is offline
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Originally Posted by Davis Webb View Post
One of my contentions is that there has been a shift from teaching how to think and be a good citizen, learning philosophy, art, history, literature, politics, basic science, law and psychology toward a career-focused path.
No argument there. I agree with you. But I don't think this is the failure of higher ed but a reflection of cultural shifts. I read a book a few years ago (The App Generation by Gardner and Davis) in which the authors cite a significant generational difference in the attitudes of incoming Harvard students: I forget the exact numbers (and I don't have the book in front of me to get them), but in 1980 the majority of students identified personal growth as the main reason for coming to college. In 2010 the majority of students cited getting a job their main motivation.

Students are products of their culture. They come to college with the kind of priorities they've learned growing up.

Personally, I think as a teacher I can help them to grow intellectually and prepare for a career, but many of the students don't really want to grow intellectually. And the courses they sign up for reflect that.

Our Philosophy department is in danger of being terminated. Enrollment in their classes has become too low.

A bittersweet irony is that a fair number of students who spend the first two years of college focused on their (imagined) future careers find that they have grown intellectually (despite their intentions) and start taking, say, Philosophy classes in their final two years. That's great, but a department with few majors is still vulnerable to being phased out.
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Last edited by Larpy; 10-23-2018 at 09:56 AM. Reason: subject-verb agreement
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  #62  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:01 AM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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My example of the G.I. bill wasn't a criticism but to point to what went along with it - the period in my father's life where he sacrificed for his education. I'm not seeing a lot of that anymore.


Bob
There's still a version of the GI bill. People are still using it to pay for education after military service. What's different?

Beyond that, I'd call the cost of an education these days a pretty major sacrifice. I'd be happier if people didn't have to make that particular sacrifice, in or out of the military.

We used to invest in creating a middle class. That seems not to be a priority these days. We all suffer for it.
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  #63  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:21 AM
Nyghthawk Nyghthawk is offline
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Without getting too far into the weeds here, I hope. About 20 years ago public schools started to be focused on teaching to a standardized test of one kind or another. Teaching kids to write effectively (if at all) and to think critically went out the window as there was no time for such. Consequently universities had to put in what amounts to remedial coursework to get high school graduates to even be able to do that level of work. Fine arts (read art, music, etc.) went out the window altogether.

Universities became glorified tech schools instead of "universal" educational institutions. They are sold as employment preparatory schools to a generation that has never been taught the value of knowledge for its own sake.
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  #64  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:26 AM
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One of my contentions is that there has been a shift from teaching how to think and be a good citizen, learning philosophy, art, history, literature, politics, basic science, law and psychology toward a career-focused path.

I am not certain that people who know nothing of the above mentioned subjects should even be allowed to vote, much less command our businesses and institutions.

Without a fundamental knowledge of history, it is hard to make sense of the present. Without philosophy one cannot critique ideas without passion. Without art and literature, one is reduced to memes and what mass media presents. Without science, law and psychology we cannot make sense of justice, illness, crime or punishment.

My fear is that we are educating people now to do a job, not to live the life of the mind. The result would be a dumbing down of America and Canada (the only systems I have experienced), so that we have a gullible population who can hate as easily as they love.
This topic is interesting to me and I’ll try not to rant. I began my adult life in a trade. I ran a construction company for over a decade, then went back to school and paid for my tuition (with loans) while raising a family. I paid for 3 of my kids college education with no financial aid, so I have a sense about cost/benefit as a consumer. —Then, I entered academia and served as a professor for 30 years at a large Land Grant University. As is often the case I was hired from within as a Department Head and ended my career as a Dean. So I understand cost/benefit from the administrative side too. I can tell you that making the sausage can get very messy. Budgets are constrained (especially when State budgets get cut halfway through a year as often happened in our case.) Demands are high. Overall, operational revenue and resources don’t match demand.

However, what I would like to emphasize is that the quality and breadth of the educational opportunities are plentiful. Students in general are thoughtful, critical, and well served. From my experience as a student, parent of students, instructor and as an administrator managing academic programs, while balancing institutional needs - I can assure you there is no shortage af skill, devotion and passion on either side of the desk. There are some bad actors and some institutions do a much better job than others. Speaking with colleagues throughout the country (and world), there are no shortage of common challenges. But it’s like anything else, there’s good, bad and ugly. A college experience is not and should not be for everyone, but everyone benefits from what Higher Education delivers IMO. There’s simply no cookie-cutter evaluation.
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  #65  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:38 AM
imwjl imwjl is offline
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Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman View Post
There's still a version of the GI bill. People are still using it to pay for education after military service. What's different?

Beyond that, I'd call the cost of an education these days a pretty major sacrifice. I'd be happier if people didn't have to make that particular sacrifice, in or out of the military.

We used to invest in creating a middle class. That seems not to be a priority these days. We all suffer for it.
Maybe it's the jobs or metro areas we're in, but but I still see vets using the benefits to get an education.

Then or now you bring up a really good point.

I'm a baby boomer so witnessed that incredible jump when my dad's contemporaries had their benefits pave the way from wrong side of town to professions where their type were mostly new to the club.

A mystery for me is the exactly when and all the why regarding success envy becoming such a thing.
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  #66  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:52 AM
bostosh bostosh is offline
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Default Great conversation here...

1. Too many people for too few good creative intellectually rewarding careers / jobs.

The school counselors did not even know my career even existed.
Tool & Die, Toolmaker, CNC machining. now retired
Somebody has to make things for everybody else who doesn't..

2. " I am of the opinion that the first two years of most any bachelor's degrees are basically a waste of money. " and time. Agreed, it was high school all over again with 12k other students. it sure felt very impersonal, so after two yrs. of B.S. pursuit, i went to a community college Machine Shop A.S. The professor knew your name and cared.

3. Bottom line ,
"do you want space flight hardware, cars, or guitars? it doesn't matter"

The intellectual joy of creation something from one's imagination.
Create or consume.
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  #67  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Haasome View Post
This topic is interesting to me and I’ll try not to rant. I began my adult life in a trade. I ran a construction company for over a decade, then went back to school and paid for my tuition (with loans) while raising a family. I paid for 3 of my kids college education with no financial aid, so I have a sense about cost/benefit as a consumer. —Then, I entered academia and served as a professor for 30 years at a large Land Grant University. As is often the case I was hired from within as a Department Head and ended my career as a Dean. So I understand cost/benefit from the administrative side too. I can tell you that making the sausage can get very messy. Budgets are constrained (especially when State budgets get cut halfway through a year as often happened in our case.) Demands are high. Overall, operational revenue and resources don’t match demand.

However, what I would like to emphasize is that the quality and breadth of the educational opportunities are plentiful. Students in general are thoughtful, critical, and well served. From my experience as a student, parent of students, instructor and as an administrator managing academic programs, while balancing institutional needs - I can assure you there is no shortage af skill, devotion and passion on either side of the desk. There are some bad actors and some institutions do a much better job than others. Speaking with colleagues throughout the country (and world), there are no shortage of common challenges. But it’s like anything else, there’s good, bad and ugly. A college experience is not and should not be for everyone, but everyone benefits from what Higher Education delivers IMO. There’s simply no cookie-cutter evaluation.
Well said!!
Also, one of the "stressors" across the country right now is the upcoming and continuing retirements of a boat load of faculty who may have started in the 60's and 70's with a critical shortage of folks who are ready to take their place. This was another factor looming in the background years ago that's now coming to pass.....increasing your phrase that "some institutions do a much better job than others". I think this will widen in the years ahead and call for careful assessment of institutions on a students/family's college list. Technology may bridge this, but I'm not certain it's going to be a one for one replacement of these valuable educators.
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  #68  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:23 AM
6L6 6L6 is offline
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I was an out of state college student at the Univ. of Colorado from 1964 thru 1968.

My family was not able to offer financial help for college.

Between washing dishes in the dorm (6 days/wk, 2 meals/day) for free room and board + $60/mo and a summer laborer job digging ditches in Indiana for the Central Indiana Gas Co., I was able to not only pay for most of my education costs, but also was able to have a used '61 VW and keep it running.

My senior year I took out a $1500 bank loan to finish school (about $12K in today's money). I paid that back over my first three years in the USAF.

It was SO worth it and I cherish my memories at CU.

It does make me sad that kids do not have the option anymore of doing what I did. School jobs and summer jobs just don't pay anything near what's required now.

I'd love to see that change, but I'm not holding my breath. My generation DID have the best of all worlds.

Last edited by 6L6; 10-24-2018 at 08:13 AM.
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  #69  
Old 10-23-2018, 12:20 PM
Nyghthawk Nyghthawk is offline
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I went to college (late bloomer) from 1998 - 2001 at a state university. I worked part-time Spring and Summer at a local nursery selling mostly plants and soil amendments. When I graduated I had nearly 30K in loans to pay off. I am about to retire next year. I will have to pay off my remaining loans (about 12K) when I downsize our home and move.

Working part-time to pay your way through school disappeared 30+ years ago.
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  #70  
Old 10-23-2018, 01:04 PM
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So true! (jobs issue).
I still do a small amount of consulting with student and families on navigating the college admission process and invariably I'll advocate that my students, some of whom have never worked at a job, begin to pick up in that area as a way to experience some of the world of work and its value both personally and financially. Often I make it a point to mention 4 part-time jobs I held while in college in the 60's and the impact they had on my approach and appreciation for good solid work in all the many years since working my way through college. Here's the list:
-I got to work with "JC" in the college cafeteria kitchen, often just the two of us together. JC was one tough cookie, street guy, and lord knows what or where he was on a Saturday night! The stories.....quite amazing...........great guy!
-I worked unloading lumber from railroad box cars one winter.....5 a.m......zero-30 degrees, dark and on our hands and knees clearing the top layers to get crawl space.
-Delivered liquor to inner city residences.......more stories.....but this time I'm experiencing it first hand!!
-Sold encyclopedias (way before internet) door to door! Eye opening......on your own doing "cold calls" with folks in far off neighborhoods from my school.

Needless to say my current students just have "that look" as I describe the many benefits of this kind of work while studying in college. I look back and know I got a pretty full education.....and not all of it in class!! LOL!! Some of these kids could benefit greatly from similar experiences, but I know it's unlikely to happen for them.
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  #71  
Old 10-23-2018, 05:14 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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  #72  
Old 10-23-2018, 06:12 PM
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I'm amazed at the number of academics on this forum!

I was granted emeritus status this past summer after 21 years in the classroom. I continue to publish, and have a book coming out next month.

While our university system certainly has its challenges, I fear this conversation fails to weigh the contributions academia makes to society, both in terms of teaching and research. I remain connected with many of my past students, and I am proud of what they are doing to make this world a better place.

We don't succeed with every student, and this remains a concern. Far too many kids consider the college experience to be a four-year party with a $100,000 cover charge. (Or $200,000 at private universities such as the one where I spent most of my career.)

Wouldn't it be nice if we could send the partiers home with a note that says, "Further investments in this child's education would not be wise at present. Please steer him/her toward gainful employment, and have your child get back to us if and when he/she appreciates the value of higher education."
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  #73  
Old 10-23-2018, 07:15 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nyghthawk View Post
I went to college (late bloomer) from 1998 - 2001 at a state university. I worked part-time Spring and Summer at a local nursery selling mostly plants and soil amendments. When I graduated I had nearly 30K in loans to pay off. I am about to retire next year. I will have to pay off my remaining loans (about 12K) when I downsize our home and move.

Working part-time to pay your way through school disappeared 30+ years ago.
I graduated from a small state school in 1994. Was able to bartend my way through school, which paid for everything I needed. I think it had changed a lot by the time you left, I'm glad I got out when I did.

Not excited about paying for 2 kids' university tabs.
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  #74  
Old 10-24-2018, 05:36 AM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
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Originally Posted by Haasome View Post
This topic is interesting to me and I’ll try not to rant. I began my adult life in a trade. I ran a construction company for over a decade, then went back to school and paid for my tuition (with loans) while raising a family. I paid for 3 of my kids college education with no financial aid, so I have a sense about cost/benefit as a consumer. —Then, I entered academia and served as a professor for 30 years at a large Land Grant University. As is often the case I was hired from within as a Department Head and ended my career as a Dean. So I understand cost/benefit from the administrative side too. I can tell you that making the sausage can get very messy. Budgets are constrained (especially when State budgets get cut halfway through a year as often happened in our case.) Demands are high. Overall, operational revenue and resources don’t match demand.

However, what I would like to emphasize is that the quality and breadth of the educational opportunities are plentiful. Students in general are thoughtful, critical, and well served. From my experience as a student, parent of students, instructor and as an administrator managing academic programs, while balancing institutional needs - I can assure you there is no shortage af skill, devotion and passion on either side of the desk. There are some bad actors and some institutions do a much better job than others. Speaking with colleagues throughout the country (and world), there are no shortage of common challenges. But it’s like anything else, there’s good, bad and ugly. A college experience is not and should not be for everyone, but everyone benefits from what Higher Education delivers IMO. There’s simply no cookie-cutter evaluation.
I think you have a rose colored view of universities. I see the other side, silos, banishing of whistle blowers who report data manipulation, a massive increase in management. Half our faculty are part time and rely on their domestic partners for real income. No new hires, promotion from within, killing all innovations in teaching and learning. Back room deals. Your view is so generous that it implies that everything is peachy. That was yesterday. Try entering the academy these days. Hard to live on $15K a year, which is what most of our faculty get paid now.
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  #75  
Old 10-24-2018, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Davis Webb View Post
I think you have a rose colored view of universities. I see the other side, silos, banishing of whistle blowers who report data manipulation, a massive increase in management. Half our faculty are part time and rely on their domestic partners for real income. No new hires, promotion from within, killing all innovations in teaching and learning. Back room deals. Your view is so generous that it implies that everything is peachy. That was yesterday. Try entering the academy these days. Hard to live on $15K a year, which is what most of our faculty get paid now.
Sounds like you’re in a bad place. We have a total of 1400 faculty. 82% of the faculty who are employed at our university our full time. The base starting salary for faculty member at our institution is over $70,000 a year. I won’t try to convince you that everything is rosy because it’s not. What I do believe is that there are many different experiences. Having said this, my main focus has always been on the student experience and I believe there are a lot of great opportunities In higher education.

Last edited by BrunoBlack; 10-24-2018 at 06:31 AM.
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