Universities and Colleges Suck...How They Fell and Can They be Saved?

[Davis Webb]

I have spent my whole career in academia. With some sizable chunks in retail, entertainment and startups. So I am not academia-bound. I can see it from the outside.

Its not the same as it was. Its all about getting a job now. They force students into careers they aren't ready for just to brag about success rates.

They promote internally and those people rise up, they don''t really try to get the best person for the job. There are thousands of managers.

75% of faculty at some colleges and 40% on average, are all part time. Part time means 3 hours a week. So most of the people teaching have no security at all and must hold several jobs to eat. However, the managers have long contracts and usually last forever.

None of them seem interested in trying new teaching ideas that are proven by research. The faculty have passion but are side lined as managers run things. Online learning is impersonal and awkward still and it has lead to firing even more faculty, cause you don't need them once its online.

It costs millions of dollars for each one to exist. None of it makes sense. Its like they are pure labor production mills. Which sounds fine. Until you wonder what major Einstein would take if they were pushing him into social media business skills.


What is wrong with higher education in your mind? Help me understand it. Help me see it through your eyes. That would be great if you could. I am too close, one cannot taste their own tongue.

[Larpy]

You're painting with an awfully broad brush. I'm in academe too (25 years as a professor at a school that's now expanding beyond its liberal arts-oriented tradition) and, from my perspective, you're describing worst-case scenarios. To suggest that all of higher ed engages in all the behavior you claim "they" do is, well, a wild generalization. Maybe true of the schools you know, but not the ones I know.

Yes, higher ed is changing, but it has to. The cultural environment changes, students change, students' interests change and, yes, business models change. As much as I personally love the idea of keeping academe the way it was (well, really the way I perceived it) when I fell in love with it as a college student myself in the 1980s, that idea is a fantasy. Times change.

I agree there are problems in higher ed, but they're not fatal. With state and federal funding decreasing over the past 40 years, schools have been forced to embrace a more consumerist business model. A college education is now marketed more like a car than the transformational experience it can and should be. I find that depressing, but it's the new normal.

On the other hand, most of my colleagues are still dedicated teachers who are committed to the job (and the joy) of sharing knowledge with students.

In the classroom and on campus, a lot of wonderful things still happen.

[fazool]

I'm in industry but tightly connected to academia.

I've been an adjunct and visiting lector for a couple decades and currently sit on the advisory boards of four different colleges.

As well I am on a couple workforce development committees in industry.

So I see the practical end of the academia-career topic.

I think they currently do "suck" but for the exact opposite reason you stated.

They have no interest in making employable graduates or productive members of society. They steer kids into fields they aren't suited for and give them useless degrees that won't get them jobs (at all).

There is a huge backlash in manufacturing and hiring attitudes have changed with college being much less important.

[Gmountain]

I think the problem is that colleges (and universities) figured out they could increase enrollment, i.e., money, by selling college as a way to get a job. They turned it into a jobs program instead of higher education.

They sold it to high schools saying everyone needed to go to college. Everyone doesn't.

They sold it so well that higher education went out the window and it became seen as nothing more than job training. They sold it so well that learning for no other sake other than to learn something new was looked down upon.

I've always felt that college was more about learning social skills than job skills. Learning to consider ideas other than your own, Learning how to get along with others. Living with and making friends with people that are different than you. Being exposed to different ideas and thoughts. Now it seems like those are the very things students try to avoid.

[Wadcutter]

Posting what I truly feel is wrong with higher education in America would get me permanently banned from the AGF. Consequently, I will just lurk on this thread, but with great interest. Carry on brothers and sisters.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Larpy

...schools have been forced to embrace a more consumerist business model. A college education is now marketed more like a car than the transformational experience it can and should be...

Originally Posted by fazool

...They have no interest in making employable graduates or productive members of society...

Originally Posted by Gmountain

...I've always felt that college was more about learning social skills than job skills. Learning to consider ideas other than your own, Learning how to get along with others. Living with and making friends with people that are different than you. Being exposed to different ideas and thoughts. Now it seems like those are the very things students try to avoid.

Pretty much sums it up for me...

[Fogducker]

If a decent, C average, student graduates high school and gets a job with a tradesman (Carpenter, plumber, electrician etc.) can take direction, is always on time and willing to work-------in about 5 years will have learned the skills and have means to earn a good living! The trades have a difficult time finding good help that they can rely upon. There is always demand for the building/repair skills!

Fog

[RedJoker]

Just curious, what is wrong with helping people find jobs? I have issues with higher education but helping people become employed is not one of them.

I help hire for our R&D center so I typically deal with PhD and Masters students in the sciences. I routinely feel like an idiot next to these folks. You'll hear no millennial bashing from me!

[srick]

IMO - there are many reasons that higher education has changed:

• The need to improve facilities, make fancy buildings, etc. etc. has led academia down the rabbit hole in the pursuit of the almighty dollar
• The Development Department of every University has become a major driver. And of course, this stems from #1. Essentially, the tail wagging the dog.
• With the emphasis on dollars raised, there has been a rise (in all fields) of the middle-level manager, the communications specialists, the PR specialists, etc. These folks have nothing to do with education and their presence draws money and influence away from the academics.
• The nature of jobs has changed. There are fewer jobs for 'generalists' and more jobs that are very specific in their needs. Hence, the training is different. However, this is changing fast and the cycle is reversing (right now). Again, this may be the tail wagging the dog.

I think on a bigger scale, this is a microcosm of almost every institution in our society. Many bureaucratic layers have been added to each profession-> these layers need to be financed-> the core mission is compromised because money and attention is drawn to the bureaucracy, as opposed to the bottom line workers.

OK - time to relinquish my soapbox - next?

best,

Rick

[rokdog49]

Thus far, what I have read sums things up pretty good for me.
My grandson is a high school senior and has already completed his requirements to graduate. He only goes to class at his high school until mid-morning and that's just to enjoy his senior year with his friends.
He has been taking some online college courses and in the next semester, he will attend the local University in the afternoons. The programs offered for advanced students with good grades will afford him the opportunity to get some college "requirement courses" out of the way FREE.
He signed up for a Math, Science and Business Management Course.
I am of the opinion that the first two years of most any bachelor's degrees are basically a waste of money. That isn't new. Before I get attacked by anyone in Academia, let me just state that the "well-rounded" aspect of a college education has turned into something completely different these days at a lot of schools. By AGF rule, I am not allowed to expound.
All these things that others posted and my thoughts being said, there are plenty of other quality options. Parents just need to dig in further and help their kids get what is needed to get moving in today's world.

[seannx]

They have no interest in making employable graduates or productive members of society. They steer kids into fields they aren't suited for and give them useless degrees that won't get them jobs (at all).

One of the results of the above, is the burdening of students with crushing student loan debt for degrees with no prospect of jobs to repay them. IMO, prior to offering or authorizing a loan, college and university financial aid departments should qualify student borrowers based on their ability to repay the principal and interest after graduation.

[Mandobart]

I'm the result of public school, then USN enlisted training, then received a BSME from the University of WA 25 years ago. 10 years ago I was granted a senior reactor operators license from the USNRC following a two year structured training program. My experience is broad, but dated. My university education was no better or worse than what I received from public, military or professional programs. The quality of the classroom facilities, instruction and material was about the same. The lab or hands-on environment in both the navy and power plant cannot be matched anywhere. So there is no mystique to a "college education" to me. One can certainly learn as good or better elsewhere. And my $200 k/year career as a power plant shift manager did not require my college degree.

[srick]

I'll just add a little more fuel and ask the question, "what should the role of schools and universities be?"

- Do they exist to train students in specific careers?
- Do they exist to teach students how to be self-starters, how to approach a problem, how to think?
- Do they exist primarily to foster research and the students happen to be incidental hitchhikers in the process?
- Do they exist to foster interest and support of the institution via sports?
- Do they exist to merely for themselves?

As we look forward to the next fifty years, the career landscape will be changing frequently and rapidly. Skills and knowledge will constantly need to be refreshed and modified. Those folks who are quick and nimble will continue to prosper. There will be a continuing 'flattening' of knowledge since so much will (and already) is available for free on the internet. What will the role of the 'ivory tower' be?

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by srick

I'll just add a little more fuel and ask the question, "what should the role of schools and universities be?"

- Do they exist to train students in specific careers?
- Do they exist to teach students how to be self-starters, how to approach a problem, how to think?
- Do they exist primarily to foster research and the students happen to be incidental hitchhikers in the process?
- Do they exist to foster interest and support of the institution via sports?
- Do they exist to merely for themselves?

As we look forward to the next fifty years, the career landscape will be changing frequently and rapidly. Skills and knowledge will constantly need to be refreshed and modified. Those folks who are quick and nimble will continue to prosper. There will be a continuing 'flattening' of knowledge since so much will (and already) is available for free on the internet. What will the role of the 'ivory tower' be?

In a word, "Diminished"

[ManyMartinMan]

The problem with analyzing anything that is thousands of years old (higher education) is that it, too frequently, is done through a myopic contemporary perspective. University was never meant for the masses or the average or the poor. Higher education was - for most of its existence - meant for royalty, aristocracy, and the elite to provide worldly education in the sciences, humanities and religion for the next wave of kings, queens and leaders. Everything else was meant to be on-the-job learning in the family business or trades - to serve the elite while they decided how to effect the lives of the masses to better serve the rich.

Now in 2018 people want free university, university for all (even those unqualified to complete the work) and to serve the desires of every individual who wants to attend college but has no direction or specific goal other than to party or hang out for 4 years. To "serve all" costs have to be exorbitant to attend to the wants of those not in attendance for a focussed university-specific study. University has always been expensive and someone has to pay for the system.

For some university is about D-1 sports, partying and finding a mate not getting in, getting the required education for a specific profession and getting out.