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  #46  
Old 07-07-2019, 01:06 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by Mich Novice View Post
Tony, thanks for taking the time to share this. I’m going to absolutely check it out!
Bill is a good guy. He has similar for the piano, and it is a great way for anybody, with or without sight, to learn - by ear.

Tony
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  #47  
Old 07-10-2019, 10:11 AM
jamma jamma is offline
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Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
Here are some facts that may help you "see" the fretboard.
1.First...
2. Everything that is played in one position can be repeated any where else.
One of the things that helped me enormously was dissecting and committing to memory every scale pattern within any chord. Every chord has its own "box". Once you learn those notes you can solo out of any chord shape. I would learn to build solos by using those scales and then extending them. Are you familiar with the term "relative minor". If you're not, you're missing a huge part of soloing. Once you get that, you will have doubled your available soloing notes.
You need someone to show you how these things are all connected. zmf kinda' said the same thing in his post.
A good instructor can do that more quickly and effectively than anything you can find on You Tube.
Once the light bulb goes on, it's just a matter of practice, repetition and learning how to be creative.
Try to find a good instructor who can show you this stuff.
How? This might be a stupid question and I'm definitely still firmly in beginner territory, but doesn't the relative minor contain the exact same notes as it's major scale? I'm probably missing something and would appreciate some guidance.

Last edited by jamma; 07-10-2019 at 11:09 AM.
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  #48  
Old 07-11-2019, 11:14 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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Originally Posted by jamma View Post
How? This might be a stupid question and I'm definitely still firmly in beginner territory, but doesn't the relative minor contain the exact same notes as it's major scale? I'm probably missing something and would appreciate some guidance.
Not a stupid question, and you are absolutely correct. Same notes in the major and its relative minor scale. Only the starting point is different. The key is to understand what the patterns of whole steps and half steps are in the scale. They are the only thing that determines whether the scale sounds minor or major (or mixolydian, or locrian, or any of the other modes, but that's for later).

Example:

C major scale: C - D - E_F- G - A - B_C
There is a half steps between the 3rd and the 4th note of the scale (we call them scale degrees), and also between the 7th and 8th scale degree. All the other steps are whole steps. This is the same pattern for any major scale. If you look at the C major chord, you'll see that the interval between the notes in the scale, C-E, is a major third, that's what makes the scale major.

Now take the same notes, but start on the A:
A - B_C - D - E_F- G - A. This is the A minor scale. Here's why:

Notice how the half steps have changed their positions this time: now they're at 2 - 3 and 5 - 6. The interval between A and C is a minor third, and that's what makes the scale (and corresponding chord) minor.

This is really all there is to it.

As to why the two scales sound different even though they contain the same notes, it's all about the starting and end points, which dictate where the whole steps and the half steps fall. Other than that, there is no difference.

This concept holds true for any key. You can map out what I did above for the G major scale, for example, and you will find that the same notes are in the E minor scale.

Once you understand this concept, a whole lot of chord progressions you have seen in songs suddenly start making sense. Try this: Next time you listen to a song in D major that has a minor chord in it, take your guitar and strum a B minor chord when it comes around. Chances are that'll be the one! Try the same with a song in G major, and strum an E minor chord once the minor rolls around. In 90% of the cases (at least in most rock and folk type tunes), you'll be spot on.

More often than not, when a song written in a major key goes to a minor, it'll be the relative minor of that key. Which, by the way, if you look at the scale patterns above, always falls on the 6th degree of the scale. Therefore, if you look at notations of songs written in the Nashville Number system, you'll often see the relative minor chord written out as "6m". Or you might be in a jam where the song leader says something like, "It starts on the I chord, then goes to the IV chord, and after that, there's a quick change to the minor 6." If you know the "secret" behind relative minors and majors, you'll be able to jump right into that jam even if you have never heard or played that song before. You don't even have to ask what chord to play, because you understand the music theory behind it.

These things are not random.

Hope this helps!
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Last edited by DesertTwang; 07-11-2019 at 11:32 AM.
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  #49  
Old 07-11-2019, 12:58 PM
JonPR JonPR is online now
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Originally Posted by jamma View Post
How? This might be a stupid question and I'm definitely still firmly in beginner territory, but doesn't the relative minor contain the exact same notes as it's major scale? I'm probably missing something and would appreciate some guidance.
You're not missing anything. The sentence you emphasised in rokdog49's post is nonsense.
Relative minor is the exact same notes, in the same patterns and positions, so makes no difference at all to your soloing material. I really can't imagine what he meant. (The phrase 'every chord has its own "box"' is also not true - although it does help me imagine what he was getting at... .)

The difference between the two is the keynote. Not the starting note, not the lowest note, and definitely not the fretboard pattern(s).

C major and A minor are two different keys. They sound very different from each other, not because they start on a different note or chord (although they do often start on their respective key chords), but because of the whole focus of the harmony and melody. They will almost always end on their respective key chords, because that's how they sound finished.
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  #50  
Old 07-13-2019, 07:00 AM
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Ludere Ludere is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertTwang View Post
Not a stupid question, and you are absolutely correct. Same notes in the major and its relative minor scale. Only the starting point is different. The key is to understand what the patterns of whole steps and half steps are in the scale. They are the only thing that determines whether the scale sounds minor or major (or mixolydian, or locrian, or any of the other modes, but that's for later).

Example:

C major scale: C - D - E_F- G - A - B_C
There is a half steps between the 3rd and the 4th note of the scale (we call them scale degrees), and also between the 7th and 8th scale degree. All the other steps are whole steps. This is the same pattern for any major scale. If you look at the C major chord, you'll see that the interval between the notes in the scale, C-E, is a major third, that's what makes the scale major.

Now take the same notes, but start on the A:
A - B_C - D - E_F- G - A. This is the A minor scale. Here's why:

Notice how the half steps have changed their positions this time: now they're at 2 - 3 and 5 - 6. The interval between A and C is a minor third, and that's what makes the scale (and corresponding chord) minor.

This is really all there is to it.

As to why the two scales sound different even though they contain the same notes, it's all about the starting and end points, which dictate where the whole steps and the half steps fall. Other than that, there is no difference.

This concept holds true for any key. You can map out what I did above for the G major scale, for example, and you will find that the same notes are in the E minor scale.

Once you understand this concept, a whole lot of chord progressions you have seen in songs suddenly start making sense. Try this: Next time you listen to a song in D major that has a minor chord in it, take your guitar and strum a B minor chord when it comes around. Chances are that'll be the one! Try the same with a song in G major, and strum an E minor chord once the minor rolls around. In 90% of the cases (at least in most rock and folk type tunes), you'll be spot on.

More often than not, when a song written in a major key goes to a minor, it'll be the relative minor of that key. Which, by the way, if you look at the scale patterns above, always falls on the 6th degree of the scale. Therefore, if you look at notations of songs written in the Nashville Number system, you'll often see the relative minor chord written out as "6m". Or you might be in a jam where the song leader says something like, "It starts on the I chord, then goes to the IV chord, and after that, there's a quick change to the minor 6." If you know the "secret" behind relative minors and majors, you'll be able to jump right into that jam even if you have never heard or played that song before. You don't even have to ask what chord to play, because you understand the music theory behind it.

These things are not random.

Hope this helps!
... and you just explained minor scales to me! Thank you!

I am also still in beginner territory, and sometimes I "get" what's being explained here and sometimes I'm just frustrated because I feel lost ... I feel like I am on the verge of a new level ... and then sometimes not so much ...

I have definitely realized that certain explanations (or styles of presentation) click for me immediately ... like Tony's explanation and approach to learning the board, and DesertTwang's treatment of relating minor scales to major scales ... and Steve Stine makes sense to me too, but I need to step back to some of his earlier lessons ... not quite ready to master "meandering" ... you'll likely find me in a ditch somewhere ...

I can definitely see how this is a labor of 'degrees', and maybe sometimes ya gotta just do it and let it make sense later ... but that's hard for me as well ...

A sincere thank you to all for taking the time to share and teach ...!

~ Paul
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  #51  
Old 07-14-2019, 06:02 AM
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Ludere Ludere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertTwang;
“... You don't even have to ask what chord to play, because you understand the music theory behind it ...

OK this threw me ... don’t you at least need to know what key you’re playing in?

~Paul

...
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