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  #1  
Old 07-04-2019, 04:22 PM
rickcrna rickcrna is offline
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Default Solving fretboard mysteries for the deductive learner

Hi folks

For years, I've taken occasional stabs at trying to learn the geography of the fretboard on guitar. Have tried publications like Fretboard Logic, CAGED, etc without much success and I feel like there is too much emphasis on memorizing the black dots.

I'm a deductive learner meaning that I prefer to see "the big picture" and then recognize patterns that support it. I also have a major tendency to make learning relatively simple concepts much harder by overthinking.

Perhaps there are folks out there who can relate to this issue and can recommend youtube videos, or instructional material that can help me progress with my understanding of the fretboard. Freeing me up to move beyond first position chords would be really fun.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and contributions.

Rick
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  #2  
Old 07-04-2019, 05:11 PM
zmf zmf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcrna View Post

I'm a deductive learner meaning that I prefer to see "the big picture" and then recognize patterns that support it.
I'm not close to having all the notes memorized, and have to confess that I'm not really trying. I'm lazy and rely on an intuitive sense. What I do have memorized are the chords, particularly the movable chords. Once I have chords, I have the scales, and know where the flatted sevenths and thirds, sixth, etc. are.

I'm not necessarily recommending this, but it does provide the patterns you mention. So I would think that the movable chords described in the CAGED method would be of some help -- curious why some of it didn't take.
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:19 PM
Russ C Russ C is offline
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I may be off track for your question here but the most powerful fretboard educator in my experience is also one that teaches harmony - recording (I suggest) several minutes of a pleasing 4 bar chord sequence (beginning in one key) and improvising over it until the whole lot is familiar and rewarding. That means the scale, the "harmony" notes and passing notes and of course, the fretboard.
It can start in your familiar area and extend as you're up to it.
The accompaniments you record should be stuff you like and can progress in complexity, again, as you're up to it.
Well worth the exercise imho.
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:32 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Here are some facts that may help you "see" the fretboard.
1.First position chords are all moveable up the fretboard...all of them. That doesn't mean they are easy to play or even useful but if you know this you can build from there.
2. Everything that is played in one position can be repeated any where else.
One of the things that helped me enormously was dissecting and committing to memory every scale pattern within any chord. Every chord has its own "box". Once you learn those notes you can solo out of any chord shape. I would learn to build solos by using those scales and then extending them. Are you familiar with the term "relative minor". If you're not, you're missing a huge part of soloing. Once you get that, you will have doubled your available soloing notes.
You need someone to show you how these things are all connected. zmf kinda' said the same thing in his post.
A good instructor can do that more quickly and effectively than anything you can find on You Tube.
Once the light bulb goes on, it's just a matter of practice, repetition and learning how to be creative.
Try to find a good instructor who can show you this stuff.
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Last edited by rokdog49; 07-04-2019 at 05:45 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-04-2019, 05:43 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcrna View Post
Hi folks

For years, I've taken occasional stabs at trying to learn the geography of the fretboard on guitar. Have tried publications like Fretboard Logic, CAGED, etc without much success and I feel like there is too much emphasis on memorizing the black dots.

I'm a deductive learner meaning that I prefer to see "the big picture" and then recognize patterns that support it. I also have a major tendency to make learning relatively simple concepts much harder by overthinking.

Perhaps there are folks out there who can relate to this issue and can recommend youtube videos, or instructional material that can help me progress with my understanding of the fretboard. Freeing me up to move beyond first position chords would be really fun.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and contributions.

Rick
My recommendation is this lesson from Woody Mann:

https://www.homespun.com/shop/produc...r-fretboard-1/

You learn by doing as he explains his approach.

Tony
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:48 PM
rokdog49 rokdog49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
My recommendation is this lesson from Woody Mann:

https://www.homespun.com/shop/produc...r-fretboard-1/

You learn by doing as he explains his approach.

Tony
That looks like a great tool.
My suggestion and approach is more rudimentary and makes you do it own your own.
The brief sample I saw I think would apply to a more advanced player.
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  #7  
Old 07-04-2019, 06:10 PM
zmf zmf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ C View Post
.... several minutes of a pleasing 4 bar chord sequence (beginning in one key) and improvising over it until the whole lot is familiar and rewarding.
This suggestion is actually fairly painless and useful in getting comfortable with the fretboard.

Just the 1,4,5 chords and relative minor. Learn their relationships. Stay in the same key and play each chord at a different position on the neck (movable chords help here). Then mix up the various chord shapes to fit a melody line. While keeping a bass harmony.
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  #8  
Old 07-04-2019, 06:16 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokdog49 View Post
That looks like a great tool.
My suggestion and approach is more rudimentary and makes you do it own your own.
The brief sample I saw I think would apply to a more advanced player.
A paper I wrote back in the mid-90s to help myself get organized on the fretboard may be worth a look. You can find it in various places around the internet, such as:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneych...odylesson.html

The paper has always been free.

I present basic music theory as a logical progression, starting with the set of 12 notes available in Western music, then on to extracting the major scale using the "template" for that scale, and then using chord spellings to extract and build chords. It is rather lengthy, and based around the CAGED system as a means of organizing the approach. Whether this information is useful or not depends on an individual's learning style. Based on emails I got over the years, many people found it useful. I didn't hear from those who didn't, so I can't gauge that.

Tony
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Old 07-04-2019, 06:44 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Hi, as already said the so called "CAGED" system is actually pretty good. Here's my lame attempt to explain it.



Remember ain't nut'n actually in a cage - its just the first position shapes of C,A,G,E and D.

Give it a go anyway, and let me know when you started chewing the carpet.
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  #10  
Old 07-04-2019, 06:49 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Hi, as already said the so called "CAGED" system is actually pretty good. Here's my lame attempt to explain it.



Remember ain't nut'n actually in a cage - its just the first position shapes of C,A,G,E and D.

Give it a go anyway, and let me know when you started chewing the carpet.
The more perspectives we have in this thread on it, the better the chances the OP will find one that "thinks" the way he does and all will be well. Mine is rather technical, since that seems to be the way I approach stuff in general, but that may not be compatible with what the OP needs. There are many different ways to explain the same content, and in this case, the more the merrier.

Tony
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  #11  
Old 07-04-2019, 06:57 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Mostly comes down to patterns and knowing (hearing) scale intervals. Thought the youtube below was pretty good way of finding your basic chords.

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  #12  
Old 07-04-2019, 07:55 PM
Mark L Mark L is offline
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Here are some directional questions for you OP:

How much do you know about music principles, irrespective of instrument? Did you learn anecdotally or systematically?

Is guitar your first and/or only musical instrument?

What are some songs and tunes you like to play, and what are some you’d like to learn? Along that line, do you have some specific influences, models or heroes?

What is your predominant right hand technique?

How complete (and deep) do you think your knowledge of what’s “going on” between the nut and 5th fret is?

I’ll leave the Q’s at that. Just some stuff to think about, and possibly help guide your responses here.

CAGED is a very good, workable systematic approach to the guitar specifically, no doubt. It works really well for standard tuning. CAGED is based on a more underlying set of musical relationships applied to the most common way to tune our instrument - this is both an advantage and a limitation.

Music is conceived and played with the mind and spirit as well as the body. That sounds obvious I know. A lot of guitar playing, pattern recognition and production, is heavy on what you do with your hands. I’ve found it helpful to approach the task from more than one angle.

So, I’ll leave you with these 2 games to play:

1) play a major and minor scale on each individual string, starting on any and every fret, both upwards and downwards. Do not go to other strings, whatever you do!!!

2) put any finger on any string anywhere, and find any major or minor triad within reach in any direction.

Best wishes on your quest! Mark.

Oh... PS, one of my absolute favorite sayings about guitar playing:

The left hand is what you know, the right hand is who you are. M.
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Old 07-04-2019, 08:02 PM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
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I know the issue you're describing and rather than give you another way to be unsuccessful, do this.

Buy a large poster of Triads that go up the neck from first fret to 15th.

Notice the similarities in fingerings up the neck. Spend time with them until the bigger picture emerges.
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Old 07-04-2019, 08:12 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Another possible approach is to - play music. Learn lots of tunes until you start to see the similarities on the fretboard occurring over and over. That would be an intuitive approach rather than learning a system that eventually allows you to - play music. David Sudnow's piano method works that way, and it does work for some people, and not for others - depending on your learning style. Why not for the guitar too?

Rather than saying that all the suggested methodologies will be unsuccessful, I would rather say that they have all worked at some time for somebody and being curious enough to experiment with the approaches that appeal to you would likely gain you more than assuming none of them work.

Tony
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  #15  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:58 PM
JohnW63 JohnW63 is offline
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Rick,

I may be in your boat as well. I'll be honest, the "CAGED" system doesn't click for me. I know I need some drill and kill on where all the notes are from at least frets 1-5 or 7, but that hasn't stuck. I have found some cool apps for that practice.

If you are trying to get a feel for soloing in any key, I simplified and stuck with the Major and Minor pentatonics. Then I found a chart online that showed how each of the 5 shapes overlapped . I then looked for the pattern in ways I could use. "If the root of your key is on the 6th string the pentatonic shape is...." and if the root of your scale is on the 5th string, the pentatonic scale shape is...". Once I figured out there was only FIVE pentatonic shapes to learn and these kept repeating on the fretboard like a conveyor belt, I had the big "ah-HA! " moment.

Yes, once I get these down, I can start adding notes to have the full major and minor scales, but, it's like a crossword puzzle. The more spots I have filled in the easier the empty spots are to figure out.

I wrote out a PDF that is a cheat sheet for me on those patterns, if you want to see it.
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