string action

[seangil]

If you have dialed in your string action at the 1st fret and have lowered the saddle as far as you can go, but still have string action at the 12th fret that is higher than you want, are there any options left for bringing it lower? There is extreme option of a neck reset, but anything in less than that?

[runamuck]

Shave the top of the bridge to expose more saddle that you can trim off.
After that a neck reset.

[Robin, Wales]

You haven't mentioned what relief you have set? I'm assuming that you have done that and it is within normal figures.

It is worth looking at what is causing your less than perfect neck/body geometry. Has the neck pulled up and neck block tilted (is there an element of collapse of the top between the neck block and the sound hole)? Has the top bellied, lifting and tilting the bridge? Was the neck initially installed at too flat an angle (unfortunately a rather common problem, even from the "big names")?

The first two problems may be able to be corrected by means other than a neck reset. Even the 3rd may be improved with a bridge shave.

But both a bridge shave and a neck reset are just compensating for a problem in another area - except for the case where the initial build geometry was incorrect. So if you could correct the underlying issues (neck block rotation and bellying) that would be a better solution than a neck reset. However, a neck reset is the go to "quick fix" for a guitar that's trying to fold itself in half or growing a belly.

If it is a cheap guitar, I'd try a bridge shave.

But firstly I'd check that any geometry problems haven't come from humidity issues (over or under humidified). That can be the quickest and cheapest fix. Get the guitar to the right humidity and in a few weeks it fixes itself.

[Eastbound]

Most likely needs a neck reset. Without really knowing where your at, and assuming all other parameters are in spec, When the saddle gets low and there is no adjustment left, its time for a neck reset. Id never considered shaving a bridge, unless it was too high to begin with. Lowering string height (too much) relative to the top of the guitar will cause loss of volume and tone

Im facing a neck reset with my 20yr old D-18 GE and am going to have the save some $ to make it happen. Hard to justify spending that much when considering what else you could buy for $500-600. But this guitar is a beauty and will be with me for the rest of my days.

If you have a bolt on neck guitar, much cheaper. I had a Taylor done over the summer and cost around $100

[seangil]

The guitar is one that I built last year. I'm guessing that I didn't quite get an optimal neck angle. I want to bring the strings down a few tenths of a millimeter. It's playable in its current condition, but would be nicer to work with if it had slightly lower action.

Thanks for the advice. I'll consider the bridge shaving. The neck reset on this particular neck joint would be a huge pain and probably not worth the gains in playing comfort.

[redir]

As mentioned check the relief. Relief is necessary for the lowest possible action but not so much for medium and higher action within acceptable limits. You also didn't tell us what the action is. Measure your two e-string heights at the 12th fret, top of fret to bottom of string and let us know.

If the guitar has relief in it then you can pull the neck straight by tweaking the truss rod removing the relief which should have the side affect of lowering the string height. If you already have a flat fretboard plane then this is not an option.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by seangil

The guitar is one that I built last year. I'm guessing that I didn't quite get an optimal neck angle. I want to bring the strings down a few tenths of a millimeter. It's playable in its current condition, but would be nicer to work with if it had slightly lower action.

Thanks for the advice. I'll consider the bridge shaving. The neck reset on this particular neck joint would be a huge pain and probably not worth the gains in playing comfort.

Did you build the guitar from scratch or was it a kit.

Is it a bolt on neck?

Regardless, if you were able to build the guitar then why would it not be worth the effort to take the neck off and reset it.

Shaving the bridge is not the correct way to fix the issue but I’ve done it on a (cheap) guitar and it was ok.

[seangil]

I built the guitar from scratch and have a done a couple now, but have not yet done repair work. I tried a neck joint approach that another luthier suggested from a Somogyi book that involves using dowels. The net result is that doing a neck reset would require removing the fretboard, drilling out dowels, and then steaming off the neck. I am not using that joint approach again and if it was my most recent build with a bolt-on neck, then I would probably just do a reset.

But it sounds like the options are:

1) Neck reset;
2) Truss rod relief (small chance);
3) Shaving the bridge;
4) Live with the current action.

[redir]

I somehow missed the part where you built this. I'm not familiar with the joint except it sounds like the one that was in the old Irving Sloan book. My very first guitar had that and some 20 years later I sawed off the neck and converted it to a bolt on to do the reset.

But I agree with the sentiment that this is a hand built guitar and should be treated that way. If your bridge is 3/8th in or thicker then you can take it down to about 5/16th but I would not go lower than that.

You can remove the FB by sawing through the 12th fret to neck wood (assuming it joins the body at the 14th) then with heat and a thin spatula remove the FB extension. A simple cloths iron works well for this and it's probably not as difficult as you think.

[seangil]

That is an idea which I hadn't considered. The design is a standard mortise and tenon that is glued in place, but you add strength by drilling two holes at the seam of the headblock and the tenon. You glue two maple dowels into those holes. I'll know in several years whether it seems to correlate with betting aging than a bolt-on, but, given the hassle involved, am just going to use bolt-ons in the future.

In the approach that you suggest, would you then just glue the extension back into place and assume that the seam between the two pieces of the fretboard would not be very visible afterwards?

[Howard Klepper]

Sean: You haven't given three pieces of information that are needed for knowing whether you need a neck reset. Those are: the relief (accurately measured, which if you are a builder means you should us a very accurate 12" straightedge rather than the guitar's strings and a capo); the action height measured from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the high and low E strings; and the height of the bridge and saddle, measured from the guitar top to the crown of the saddle in the center of the bridge. This assumes you have already got the nut slots to within 2-3 thousandths of an inch above fret height.

The basic sequence of a setup is relief with strings tuned to pitch using the 12" straightedge and feeler gauges(4-7 thousandths of an inch at the middle of the neck--6th or 7th fret), then nut slots (set to fret height or 2-3 thousandths of an inch higher. Not set by measuring 1st fret action), and then 12th fret action adjusted by lowering the saddle. Then, especially if there was a significant change in saddle height or nut slot height, check relief again and tweak it if needed. Not only do you not begin by setting 1st fret action, there is no need to ever measure or "dial in" 1st fret action. The 1st fret action is just an artifact of relief, nut slots, and 12th fret action.

Last, on a neck that is not made to be removed, an effective alternative to a reset is to remove the fretboard and reglue it with a tapered wedge underneath. The wedge thickness at the twelfth fret is the amount by which you want to lower the action, tapering to zero at the nut. This also gives you the opportunity to put stiffening in the neck if you can't get the relief low enough.

[Fathand]

Originally Posted by seangil

That is an idea which I hadn't considered. The design is a standard mortise and tenon that is glued in place, but you add strength by drilling two holes at the seam of the headblock and the tenon. You glue two maple dowels into those holes. I'll know in several years whether it seems to correlate with betting aging than a bolt-on, but, given the hassle involved, am just going to use bolt-ons in the future.

This sounds like the Siminoff mandolin neck joint. Are the dowels inserted from the bottom of the heel before the back is attached?

[seangil]

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper;7358571]Sean: You haven't given three pieces of information that are needed for knowing whether you need a neck reset. Those are: the relief (accurately measured, which if you are a builder means you should us a very accurate 12" straightedge rather than the guitar's strings and a capo); the action height measured from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the high and low E strings; and the height of the bridge and saddle, measured from the guitar top to the crown of the saddle in the center of the bridge. This assumes you have already got the nut slots to within 2-3 thousandths of an inch above fret height.

The basic sequence of a setup is relief with strings tuned to pitch using the 12" straightedge and feeler gauges(4-7 thousandths of an inch at the middle of the neck--6th or 7th fret), then nut slots (set to fret height or 2-3 thousandths of an inch higher. Not set by measuring 1st fret action), and then 12th fret action adjusted by lowering the saddle. Then, especially if there was a significant change in saddle height or nut slot height, check relief again and tweak it if needed. Not only do you not begin by setting 1st fret action, there is no need to ever measure or "dial in" 1st fret action. The 1st fret action is just an artifact of relief, nut slots, and 12th fret action.


Hi Howard,

Thanks for this and I will add the measures. I am not sure if I understand the point about the nut slots. Most videos that I have seen on setup follow the sequence that you mentioned, but, rather than talking about nut slots, focus on the action at the 1st fret. Do you mean that if you ran a straightedge from the frets to the nut that the bottom of the slot in the nut should only be a few thousands higher than the fret? So if you had a fret that was 0.080" high, then you would want your slots to be set at a height of 0.083"?

Sean

[seangil]

Originally Posted by Fathand

This sounds like the Siminoff mandolin neck joint. Are the dowels inserted from the bottom of the heel before the back is attached?

No, you glue in the tenon joint without the fretboard attached. Then you drill the dowels in from the top. The final step is to glue on the fretboard.

It's a technique that the builder who I worked with on my first guitar used. He said that it came from an article by Somogyi or maybe his book.

I used it on my first builds, but am going to switch to bolt-on joints going forward.

Sean

[Howard Klepper]

[QUOTE=seangil;7359890]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

Sean: You haven't given three pieces of information that are needed for knowing whether you need a neck reset. Those are: the relief (accurately measured, which if you are a builder means you should us a very accurate 12" straightedge rather than the guitar's strings and a capo); the action height measured from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the high and low E strings; and the height of the bridge and saddle, measured from the guitar top to the crown of the saddle in the center of the bridge. This assumes you have already got the nut slots to within 2-3 thousandths of an inch above fret height.

The basic sequence of a setup is relief with strings tuned to pitch using the 12" straightedge and feeler gauges(4-7 thousandths of an inch at the middle of the neck--6th or 7th fret), then nut slots (set to fret height or 2-3 thousandths of an inch higher. Not set by measuring 1st fret action), and then 12th fret action adjusted by lowering the saddle. Then, especially if there was a significant change in saddle height or nut slot height, check relief again and tweak it if needed. Not only do you not begin by setting 1st fret action, there is no need to ever measure or "dial in" 1st fret action. The 1st fret action is just an artifact of relief, nut slots, and 12th fret action.


Hi Howard,

Thanks for this and I will add the measures. I am not sure if I understand the point about the nut slots. Most videos that I have seen on setup follow the sequence that you mentioned, but, rather than talking about nut slots, focus on the action at the 1st fret. Do you mean that if you ran a straightedge from the frets to the nut that the bottom of the slot in the nut should only be a few thousands higher than the fret? So if you had a fret that was 0.080" high, then you would want your slots to be set at a height of 0.083"?

Sean

Yes. 0.080 to 0.083. You can go all the way to .080 (although depending on the relief that can create the potential for sympathetic back buzz, but that's another problem and can be solved if it arises).

The fret height is a fixed number, and you work the nut slots to that number. Fret height does not change with higher or lower action. But the first fret string height does change with the action height, so it is not a fixed reference for the nut slots. It's also a lot easier to run a 4" or so knife edge straightedge across the frets to the nut slot to check than it is to keep measuring the first fret action. There is no need to ever measure first fret action in order to get an ideal setup.