The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:44 PM
jseth jseth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oregon... "Heart of the Valley"...
Posts: 10,831
Default

You know, I have NEVER, not once in my 60 years of playing the guitar, thought of "where I rate" on some imaginary scale of bad>good>great...

I always knew I had a lot to learn, so I kept learning. There were players I knew who were far more adept at playing things I wanted to play, so I'd badger them for help or tips, or I'd find a way to get that information...

I just kept on going... and now? I know there are a lot of players who would think I was "better" than they are, but truthfully, I KNOW that I have more to go. Over the years, my own idea of "who I am" as a guitarist has shifted quite a bit. I never wanted to learn how to play "just like ____"... now I know that what I REALLY want is to play just like ME!

When I get to the point of being able to recreate the sounds I hear in my head on my guitar, then I suppose I could think that I'm "there"... but I'm certain there will always be more to learn, more miles to go.

Whether you realize it or not, the type of thinking that your thread engenders is actually antithetical to actually getting where you want to go... you will always be better than many and far less accomplished than others...

It's about making music; it's not a race or a competition. Never has been, never will be...
__________________
"He's one of those who knows that life is just a leap of faith.
Spread your arms and hold your breath,
always trust your cape..."

"The Cape" (Guy Clark/Jim Janowsky/Susanna Clark)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:49 PM
Mr. Jelly's Avatar
Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Posts: 7,848
Default

The longer I play and the older I get I find I understand the guitar better and understand making music more thoroughly. I don't play as well as I used to though. I think I'm getting worse the older I get.
__________________
Waterloo WL-S, K & K mini
Waterloo WL-S Deluxe, K & K mini
Iris OG, 12 fret, slot head, K & K mini

Follow The Yellow Brick Road
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-27-2020, 04:41 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock View Post
Tough crowd here - COVID-19 induced crankiness I guess. Just having some light hearted fun here - not rocket science.

What I'm asking is:

What technical aspects of guitar playing do YOU think puts one into a particular category or another. Not definite, I get it. Not verifiable, I get it. Not important, I get it. Just a fun exercise, not much different than giving a certain review of a popular book or movie or best rock and roll groups of all time or running shoes or whatever.

For example: I think being able to play the basic open chord forms cleanly and smoothly and without looking elevates one out of rank beginner status and into maybe an advanced beginner category, whereas being able to add barre chords into the mix cleanly maybe starts nipping at low intermediate. Wrapping a thumb over top on a barre chord is more of an intermediate skill in my opinion.

See how easy this is? But I'm full of dog doo on my assessments, you say. Very well may be, but it's an exercise in pondering the unknowable and expanding your cortex as you sit and wonder if you'll ever be able to visit a guitar shop again.
OK spock, I'll try to answer the above question more precisely.

What technical aspects of guitar playing do YOU think puts one into a particular category or another.

These are what I believe are the basinc skils necessary - of course I can only speak for myself.

1. Understand the notes on the strings
2. Be able play scales (standard major an minor and pentatonics.
3. play chords in 1st -to 5th positions. (CAGED)
4. Understand the formation of chords - (harmonising the scale)
5. Be able to work out chord progressions by ear, or with a guitar in hand.
6. understand playing styles - for me -flat-picking, basic sock style, fingerstyle of some sort.
7. Rhythmic styles - 8, 12,16 bar progressions.
8. Play in 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, and understand
9. Take/ make solo lines as necessary.
10, Adequately accompany yourself and others.

Hope that helps.
__________________
Silly Moustache,
Just an old Limey acoustic guitarist, Dobrolist, mandolier and singer.
I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:44 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock View Post
how would you describe your relative level of playing ability
I'm better than I was yesterday, and not as good as I will be tomorrow.

At least that's when I'm feeling optimistic...

One interesting aspect of this question (IMO) is that we might think that technical skill is probably a fairly easy aspect of musicianship to measure - even while I hope we'd all agree it's not the most important.
E.g., we could point to pieces of music we can play easily, and other pieces where we'd have difficulty.
That's kind of how the grading process works anyway. We'd probably all agree that someone who's passed grade 8 guitar is more accomplished, has greater technical facility, than someone who's failed grade 5. (I'm not saying it matters either way. The person who failed grade 5 may be a much more enjoyable entertainer than the one who passed grade 8. But at least there's a kind of measure there.)

But difficulty is surmountable! I've often felt that a piece seems way beyond my skill level - out of reach. But then I work on it, and eventually find I can do it. Within a few days or weeks, what seemed out of reach is now within my grasp.
That's not a result of the slow gradual improvement that's natural the more we play and the older we get (until old age robs us of physical or mental agility). It's the result of working on that piece. Other pieces that seemed equally difficult when I began that one, still seem just as difficult. IOW, in general I don't feel I've improved. I feel the same level as I was. But I've worked on one tune, and conquered it.

So, we could probably rate ourselves - at present - in terms of being able to play piece (A), but not piece (B). E.g., we could allot ourselves a likely grade level, by looking at the pieces and assessing which ones seem do-able, and which look like "wtf?" But quite likely the pieces in the grade above what we think we can do are quite possible, given a little work.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:36 AM
ssjk ssjk is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 325
Default

I didn't go back and look at previous threads like this, but as I recall this one's responses are running true to form.

roughly 50% answer the question
roughly 50% respond that this is a question that is either unanswerable or harmful in some way

I think it's harmless fun, kind of like talking about whether Cal Ripkin is better than Derek Jeter (or Chet Atkins vs Tony Rice if you prefer). In any case I can't see why the type of thinking that this thread engenders would be actually antithetical to actually getting where I want to go. It's kind of on a parallel thought path for me. I like philosophical discussions.

I propose the next thread be entitled "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-27-2020, 07:49 AM
Mr. Jelly's Avatar
Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Posts: 7,848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock View Post
Tough crowd here - COVID-19 induced crankiness I guess. Just having some light hearted fun here - not rocket science.
You're right.

What you are asking is people to toot their own horns. Where I come from, having a stoic background and all, when a person does that chances are they are full of it. The ones that sandbag are the ones to look out for.
__________________
Waterloo WL-S, K & K mini
Waterloo WL-S Deluxe, K & K mini
Iris OG, 12 fret, slot head, K & K mini

Follow The Yellow Brick Road
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:28 AM
lowrider lowrider is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,012
Default

I'm not sandbagging when I say that I'm a pretty basic player. After three years, two of them playing with others, I no longer a beginner, but I realize how good you can get so I'm certainly not an intermediate either. I'm ok with that. I'm having fun, I'm learning all the time, and the people I play with enjoy the songs I chose. (My singing isn't strong, my playing is basic, but boy can I pick some great songs!)

I think the issue here is that after you know a little bit, nobody wants to call themselves a beginner anymore, but when you look how far you can go and how much there is to learn, you really are still a beginner.

So I think the problem that we don't have a category for those of us who aren't beginners anymore but still have a really long way to go. I like the term ''basic player''.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:40 AM
jwayne jwayne is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 410
Default

ABRSM has a formal grades for classical guitar based on scales and arpeggios, sight-reading and aural tests.

A person is expected to be able to play three pieces from a specific graded list.

So Grade 1 you'd have to be able to play, eg, this tune (performed by Gary Ryan, one of the test designers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5GUyItC7h4

Here's a grade 5 (Take 5):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7JmtFzgWM

Here's a grade 8 tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2JLkizT5hg
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-27-2020, 08:45 AM
6 Strings MI 6 Strings MI is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Detroit Metro area
Posts: 311
Default

In my case, I can play a few chords, and even smoothly transition between them sometimes. There are a couple-few simple riffs that I can play. However, I know very little (if anything at all) about theory. I can't read music at all. I'm far from being ready to play bluegrass.

I'm about as novice as you can get.

And yes, some of these rating scales are ludicrous. If music is not the means by which you earn your living, you are not a professional. Using the literal interpretation of that word, I suppose it could also be argued that a professional musician is not necessarily a great musician.
__________________
Playing a Fender and preparing to upgrade!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:06 AM
6L6 6L6 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 5,506
Default

Interesting post here.

I can't stand to listen to more than a few seconds of guitar shredding (to me it is a gymnastic exercise and not musical), but I appreciate the virtuosity of Steve Vai, Van Halen, and the others who can play like that.

I'd rate myself an intermediate guitar player. Not much left hand skill, but my right hand does a decent job playing Travis fingerstyle.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:29 AM
Thom PC Thom PC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowrider View Post
I'm not sandbagging when I say that I'm a pretty basic player. After three years, two of them playing with others, I no longer a beginner, but I realize how good you can get so I'm certainly not an intermediate either. I'm ok with that. I'm having fun, I'm learning all the time, and the people I play with enjoy the songs I chose. (My singing isn't strong, my playing is basic, but boy can I pick some great songs!)

I think the issue here is that after you know a little bit, nobody wants to call themselves a beginner anymore, but when you look how far you can go and how much there is to learn, you really are still a beginner.

So I think the problem that we don't have a category for those of us who aren't beginners anymore but still have a really long way to go. I like the term ''basic player''.
I really like the term 'basic player'! That is where I see myself as well. Honestly, all I can really do reasonably well is strum open chords and basic barré chords - no leads, no bass lines, no fingerpicking. However, I do play in time, and I use the guitar as accompaniment to singing - and in that sense I would describe my guitar playing abilities as 'adequate' although there is most certainly a lot of room for improvement.

I am sure this puts me in the lower tiers here at AGF - and no doubt there are many more knowledgeable and experienced people here than me - but I still feel that I am able to appreciate the difference between a lacking, a good, and a great guitar (although these terms are of course pretty subjective as well). Am I able to draw the last drop of performance potential out of a nice Gibson J-45 or a custom made Martin 000-18 type guitar (which is about as high as my personal experience goes)? No, definitely not. Am I able to recognize that these guitars are rather special? Yes.

Not sure where I am going with this - but back to the 'basic player' - I think that sums up a player who is technically limited, but able to deliver a musically enjoyable performance (- whatever that means!)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-27-2020, 10:04 AM
spock spock is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
Default

Quote:
I think it's harmless fun, kind of like talking about whether Cal Ripkin is better than Derek Jeter (or Chet Atkins vs Tony Rice if you prefer). In any case I can't see why the type of thinking that this thread engenders would be actually antithetical to actually getting where I want to go. It's kind of on a parallel thought path for me. I like philosophical discussions.
Precisely! Man o man, I may be quite naive, but I never expected such heartfelt feelings of angst over a harmless exercise in what was intended to be fun.

And no, this is not about folks tooting their own horns, or asking folks to rate themselves with regard to other players, but rather simply to give me their "opinion" of what constituted a particular skill designation, that's it, no deep hidden meaning, no call for speeches on the very essence of musicianship and life, just . . . oh well, I think it's hopeless - I'll just take my ball and go home.

Still, when I get on a web site and I'm looking at Tab that states it is intended for intermediate or advanced players or whatever, I'll direct them here to to this thread to get themselves right and consider ditching such meaningless and impossible to define terms.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-27-2020, 10:12 AM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwayne View Post
ABRSM has a formal grades for classical guitar based on scales and arpeggios, sight-reading and aural tests.

A person is expected to be able to play three pieces from a specific graded list.

So Grade 1 you'd have to be able to play, eg, this tune (performed by Gary Ryan, one of the test designers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5GUyItC7h4

Here's a grade 5 (Take 5):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7JmtFzgWM

Here's a grade 8 tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2JLkizT5hg
And I'm looking at these and to me the Grade 5 tune seems more difficult than the Grade 8 piece,
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-27-2020, 10:36 AM
LadysSolo LadysSolo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 556
Default

I would consider myself to be an advanced beginner. I can play I, IV, and V chords in all keys, know theory and can read music (years of piano) as well as tab, and can play a little classical. I cannot play a lead or play by ear, but when I buy new music, I buy Intermediate as I want to stretch myself, and if I try long enough I can do it. So I am still not where I want to be yet.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-27-2020, 01:17 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ogden, Utah
Posts: 4,062
Default

I can play the music that I like so I guess I've advanced to that point. I generally write music that I hear in my head so I'm always working out new melodies from that point of view. Even though guitar is my main instrument, I'm more interested in songs than guitar so as long as I'm writing songs I feel like I'm moving forward.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=