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  #121  
Old 08-28-2012, 04:22 AM
trion12 trion12 is offline
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Originally Posted by woa_horsey View Post
Gee, ya think maybe because some know nothing poser suggested I never played any bop? What's my credibility as a player have to do with playing on songs or in styles I don't like? I can play bop as well as anybody, or at least I could back then.
Prove it then . . . post some stuff. If you can play I will be the first to acknowledge you.

As for the "know nothing" bit, unless they give away music degrees on street corners I think mine probably qualifies me to know a few things . . .

As for the "poser" bit you can be the judge for yourself from the recordings in my sig. rather than just the words in my posts . . .

Aaron

Last edited by trion12; 08-28-2012 at 04:32 AM.
  #122  
Old 08-28-2012, 04:38 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by woa_horsey View Post
I've reported both of your posts.
My apologies, they were in jest. (I forgot the smileys.)
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Originally Posted by woa_horsey View Post
Either post some of your own bop recordings or quit posting. Nobody likes a poser.
I don't play bop. I'm not good enough, and would never say I was.
I have played many kinds of jazz, but bop is somewhat advanced for me. Plus it doesn't interest me that much. It belongs to the 1940s, IMO. Jazz has moved on since then.
  #123  
Old 08-28-2012, 04:59 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post
I don't see any trolls here. Just a debate.
IMO, "debate" is too good word for what seems to be an exchange of overheated opinions and personal tastes.

However, I do admire woa horsey for being honest and unafraid to post examples of his playing. So, he doesn't like bebop; nothing wrong with that.
I was unnecessarily facetious regarding his claim to have frequently performed music he doesn't like. (I play for money, as often as I can, but never play music I don't like. Or rather, I often play music I don't much like to listen to, but I always enjoy it when I play it. I can't imagine not enjoying the act of playing music of any kind, although obviously some music is more fun than other kinds.)

What irritates people (me included, albeit mildly) is stating opinions as if they were facts. (Bop "is" a disorganised mess.)
That seems calculated to stir up emotional responses from jazz fans, hence the accusation of trolling (which was not mine originally).
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Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post
Here's a serious question though?

Why are jazz players referred to as cats? If you're not a very good player are you still a cat? Or maybe just a kitten?
I hesitate to say they're called cats because of the dreadful yowling sound they make...


Let's lighten the debate somewhat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSQVvjiXxJU
  #124  
Old 08-28-2012, 05:55 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Okay, some things need to be cleared up.

I was under the impression we've been talking about bebop. Bebop started at Minton's in the mid/late 40's and never really went away, but wasn't the only kind of jazz exisiting either...bebop was all about complex, knotty, heads, complex chord changes...often upper midtempo to downright fast...there's also hard bop, often called just "bop," which tended to be sower, bluesier...again, there's no hard lines between this stuff. Losta cats played both...

But, for your ears, bebop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hANODMX9c5g

And "hard" bop, or bop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmtHdBPzi_w

You will hear Mobley and Parker following the changes in these clips. If you can't hear it, transcribe it. They're following the changes.

Choosing a Rollins clip from 1965 doesn't work to illustrate "bop" playing. Many cats had moved in a more free direction by then, Rollins included...this meant that yes, they were disregarding the chord changes...this is not "bop."

The clip horsey posted was definitely not bebop...hard to argue bop either...sounded like a three chord blues, something few jazz artists save for Monk tried until Miles simplified things in '59 with Kind of Blue. You'll hear that his playing, while self-admittedly not to "in" to it, does actually follow the key center changes....this is very indiciative of a post-bop, or almost "modal jazz" approach.

Here's Rollins playing bop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_W3-MCdcho

and something a little more "bebop" from Rollins. Again, you'll hear him the hitting chord changes in his solos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7ah7unyXbA


Here's Rollins playing the same tune 8 years later...with a much different cast of characters...much free-er approach...mind you, this is the same year as he recorded the above clip of "Without a Song." See what I mean that this stuff is not linear?

This needed to be cleared up if there's ever going to be an intelligent conversation about jazz. At least that's this uneducated kiddo's opinion.

Oh, we had the old "put up or shut up" arguement floated too, didn't we? Well, my website's right there at the bottom of the screen...I haven't recorded much bebop, I'm more of a solo guy, but if you want to listen, ou'll hear me hit the chord changes in every single tune on my site. And I'm just a nobody weekend jobber....so if I can do it...
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  #125  
Old 08-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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Bern Bern is offline
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Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post

Here's a serious question though?

Why are jazz players referred to as cats? If you're not a very good player are you still a cat? Or maybe just a kitten?
Serious question ?
The term 'cat' is a term of endearment, nothing else. If you're a good or bad player, it doesn't matter. My friends and I have used the term aside from music to describe a cool character, for example.
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