how do you count 6/8 time ?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

I think this point is tricky because it mixes convention with theory to some extent.

For me, convention and theory are essentially the same thing
(Although I guess there are variations in "convention" across genres which are not necessarily contained in "theory"...)

Originally Posted by ombudsman

You can write a tune with a rhythmic pattern with unusual accents and spaces without leaving the basic time signature. It's not common in European and American modern music

I'd say it was pretty common -although it's certainly more of a feature in African-American music of all kinds, including its "offspring", rock.
It's a European classical view that "one" has the prime accent - aurally as well as conceptually. That's certainly not the case in Latin American and Caribbean music, and often not the case in jazz, blues and rock. (Funk would be one vernacular genre where "beat 1" is predominant.)
But it all still works on top of the basic idea of a metre and time signature. We always have to know (and feel) "where one is", even when we're not playing it, or stressing other beats. So the basic concept of time sigs is not affected.
The often confusing differences between 3/4 and 6/8; 2/4, 4/4 and 2/2; 12/8 and shuffle 4/4; etc, are likewise not related to the off-beat accents common in popular music. They are all to do with how we feel and count what we perceive as "beats", which are different things from "accents".

IOW, there's obviously confusion about that term "accent" . When we say "beat 1 has an accent", it may not be an accent we hear (in the music itself), but one we imagine in order to count from it. The overt accents we hear (and play) in the music may well be on different beats or between the beats.

Eg, in reggae, or Cuban salsa, beat 1 is often missing altogether. But we feel where it is, which is what makes those rhythms so danceable: our bodies lurch into the space where "one" should be. Similar sensations apply to syncopation in jazz or rock (and even in classical). It's because we know where "1" is that syncopations have their powerful effects. The notation of time sigs is simply a written illustration of those implied underlying beats (the pulse) that we feel, even when the music is playing accents all around it.

Originally Posted by ombudsman

but it's common in Indian and Middle Eastern music where you can have a "one" that is weak and then big accents on later beats or "ands".

Sure. But AFAIK those cultures have a different way of conceptualising rhythm. Many don't even have a system of writing music down, at least not in the complex way we have in the west. And yet their rhythms - I agree - tend to be a lot more sophisticated than western ones. (Indian tala make for a good comparison with the western concept of metre.)

Originally Posted by ombudsman

So I'm saying the "implied accents" aspect of time signatures that we think of are not universal and are entirely separable from the notation of a piece

Time signatures ARE notation . It's "metre" that is the thing we hear, and that we attempt to notate (often crudely, admittedly) in the form of a "time signature".
A time signature - agreed - doesn't necessarily mean we play with the accents implied by it. The "implied accents" are often merely a way of counting, to help us navigate a piece. That's why we need to know "where one is", and also how we count the rest of a bar.

The problem is always that 2-way conversion: first from sound into notation; and then from the notation back into the sound, hopefully getting as close to the original sound as we can. (Accepting of course that notation is always incomplete and somewhat simplified.)
With rhythm notation, we usually have tempo indications to go along with a time signature. So if the (say) the 6/8 is slow (eg a lot slower than Irish jig tempo), there ought to be some kind of tempo indication - either in words or in BPM. (And in 6/8, of course - for the OP - the unit of BPM in 6/8 and 12/8 is the dotted quarter note, not the 8th.)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FlpQY3mmQ

At 3 minutes and 11 seconds, he strums and says: "ONE, two, three, FOUR, five and six"

He says "AND" between the five and six, so how could it be written, or why is it written, as you suggest: 1/2/3 4/5/6 and

I think ombudsman misunderstood the question . The "and" (in the video you're talking about) is between 5 and 6, and there is no difference I can see between the two ways you wrote it yourself:

1/2/3 4/5 and/6
or
1/2/3 4/5/and 6

IOW, I'm not sure what your slashes are supposed to indicate.

Here's how I'd lay it out:

6/8 (SLOW)
   MAIN BEATS: |X   .   .   X   .   .  |
    8TH notes: |1   2   3   4   5 & 6  |
strum pattern:  D   D   D   D   D U D

Where you place slashes relative to that "and" seems irrelevant to me.

Also, although this tempo is slow enough to count every 8th note comfortably, I don't recommend doing that. I suggest counting the beat accents as one and two, and filling in with any other syllable you like (if you need to, and you shouldn't need to ).

6/8 (SLOW)
   MAIN BEATS: |ONE .   .  TWO  .   .  |
    8TH notes: |x   x   x   x   x   x
strum pattern:  D   D   D   D   D U D

At least if you think about feeling it in that way (with the strong accents on 1st and 4th 8th notes) you'll get a better idea of what 6/8 feels like.

The faster 6/8 goes, of course, the more difficult it is to play downstrokes on every beat (whether strumming or picking 8ths). So when 6/8 approaches fast jig tempo, your strokes either move to alternate, as stanron suggested:
D U D U D U
or as HHP suggested:
D U D D U D
The latter is probably better for maintaining the 2-beat feel of 6/8, especially in Irish jig feel. (Although at extreme tempos, that wouldn't be possible, and I think you'd need to resort to DUDUDU.)
But with DUDDUD, at comfortable jig tempo, for more varied patterns you might still have room for upstrokes between those two neighbouring downstrokes, eg:

|1   x   x   2   x   x  |1...
|D   U   D u D   U   D u|D...

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Here's how I'd lay it out:

6/8 (SLOW)
   MAIN BEATS: |X   .   .   X   .   .  |
    8TH notes: |1   2   3   4   5 & 6  |
strum pattern:  D   D   D   D   D U D

Where you place slashes relative to that "and" seems irrelevant to me.

Also, although this tempo is slow enough to count every 8th note comfortably, I don't recommend doing that. I suggest counting the beat accents as one and two, and filling in with any other syllable you like (if you need to, and you shouldn't need to ).

6/8 (SLOW)
   MAIN BEATS: |ONE .   .  TWO  .   .  |
    8TH notes: |x   x   x   x   x   x
strum pattern:  D   D   D   D   D U D

At least if you think about feeling it in that way (with the strong accents on 1st and 4th 8th notes) you'll get a better idea of what 6/8 feels like.

The faster 6/8 goes, of course, the more difficult it is to play downstrokes on every beat (whether strumming or picking 8ths). So when 6/8 approaches fast jig tempo, your strokes either move to alternate, as stanron suggested:
D U D U D U
or as HHP suggested:
D U D D U D
The latter is probably better for maintaining the 2-beat feel of 6/8, especially in Irish jig feel. (Although at extreme tempos, that wouldn't be possible, and I think you'd need to resort to DUDUDU.)
But with DUDDUD, at comfortable jig tempo, for more varied patterns you might still have room for upstrokes between those two neighbouring downstrokes, eg:

|1   x   x   2   x   x  |1...
|D   U   D u D   U   D u|D...

In all the examples you've provided -- those in the "code boxes" -- would those upstrokes between the six 8th notes be considered 16th notes? If not, what are they considered?

---

[islander53]

Originally Posted by richard1

No need to elaborate on the question. Do you count 1 2 3 4 1 2 1 2 3 4 1 2. Could you give me some well known examples of music in 6/8 time ?. The way I understand it is like in Paul McCartney's ' Frog song ', or David Gilmore's ' Smile ' . Am I on the right track ? Many thanks for your help.

This thread is a good read and education, but to bring it all back home to the original question, the way to count 6/8 time is like this:

1 2 3 4 5 6

That's just one measure of music, and that's all it is, your basic 6/8.
Everything else is enhancement, building on the feel.
You can add all the various strums and accents you like, as long as it stays within that basic beat.

A few examples with very obvious 6/8 time signatures:

• House of the Rising Sun (The Animals)
• Unchained Melody (Righteous Brothers)
• Norwegian Wood (The Beatles)

Compare that with one measure of 3/4 time:

1 2 3

A world of difference.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

In all the examples you've provided -- those in the "code boxes" -- would those upstrokes between the six 8th notes be considered 16th notes?
---

Yes. The upstroke between and the downstroke before make a pair of 16ths:

          |1   x   x   2   x   x  |1...
          |D   U   D u D   U   D u|D...
8th notes: |   |       |   |             
16ths:             |_|         |_|

Check from 4:13 here, which shows various combinations of 8ths and 16ths in 6/8 time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=JyBz_9bVg8o
The middle bar on the 2nd line is the same rhythm as my crude text version above.

BTW - NB! The BPM indication on the top left of the video is WRONG. A metronome set to that (1/4 note = 70) will click 3 times in each bar. That's 3/4 (3 quarter notes in each bar), not 6/8!
The bpm mark should be "dotted 1/4 = 47" (2/3 of 70). However, because that's very slow to follow, a setting of 8th = 140 might be better, so you hear the 6 clicks per bar; but ideally a metronome with an accent on the 1st and 4th 8th notes is best.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by islander5360

This thread is a good read and education, but to bring it all back home to the original question, the way to count 6/8 time is like this:

1 2 3 4 5 6

That's just one measure of music, and that's all it is, your basic 6/8.
Everything else is enhancement, building on the feel.
You can add all the various strums and accents you like, as long as it stays within that basic beat.


A few examples with very obvious 6/8 time signatures:

• House of the Rising Sun (The Animals)
• Unchained Melody (Righteous Brothers)
• Norwegian Wood (The Beatles)

Compare that with one measure of 3/4 time:

1 2 3

A world of difference.

Yes, but (hopefully ) to make it clearer:

6/8 = |1 2 3 4 5 6 |
3/4 = |1 & 2 & 3 & |

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by JonPR

IOW, there's obviously confusion about that term "accent" . When we say "beat 1 has an accent", it may not be an accent we hear (in the music itself), but one we imagine in order to count from it. The overt accents we hear (and play) in the music may well be on different beats or between the beats.

That's a more modern conception of it, showing the effects of some of the other influences I mentioned, but what I'm saying is the tradition our terminology comes from was of an implicit audible strong 1 and now we're getting away from that. Which is good in the sense that it makes us more flexible but it also makes some of our explanations (including in this thread) and literature out of date and less relevant.

Originally Posted by JonPR

Time signatures ARE notation . It's "metre" that is the thing we hear, and that we attempt to notate (often crudely, admittedly) in the form of a "time signature".

It's a bit pedantic to distinguish between time signature and meter in this context.

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FlpQY3mmQ

At 3 minutes and 11 seconds, he strums and says: "ONE, two, three, FOUR, five and six"

He says "AND" between the five and six, so how could it be written, or why is it written, as you suggest: 1/2/3 4/5/6 and

That would be written by the first method in your previous post, as I said would work if you meant to indicacate an upbeat on beat five:

1 2 3 4 5 and 6

That point in the video is confusing because when he says what the rhythm is before he starts playing that example, he gives the "and" too much time. He probably didn't mean to do that.

[MICHAEL MYERS]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

what I'm saying is the tradition our terminology comes from was of an implicit audible strong 1 and now we're getting away from that. Which is good in the sense that it makes us more flexible but it also makes some of our explanations (including in this thread) and literature out of date and less relevant.

Good points there. Agreed.

[islander53]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes, but (hopefully ) to make it clearer:

6/8 = |1 2 3 4 5 6 |
3/4 = |1 & 2 & 3 & |

I know what you're trying to convey here, but it still doesn't quite work

Your example is saying that 3/4 and 6/8 occupy the same aural space, which they do not. To the untrained ear, when hearing the two side-by-side, 6/8 sounds like two measures of 3/4. However, that is not the case. If you think of a drummer playing the two basic beats, he would play them like this (where 'hh' indicates hi-hat):

3/4
KICK snare snare

6/8
KICK hh hh snare hh hh


So, to refine your example, it would more properly be like this:

6/8 = |1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 &|
3/4 = |1 & 2 & 3 &|1 & 2 & 3 &|

Now they occupy the same space, but the 3/4 has to be played twice to accomplish that (and of course provides a whole different feel).

[ljguitar]

I know what you're trying to convey here, but it still doesn't quite work

You know folks...

I bet richard (the original poster) has the difference identified to his satisfaction now. I know I do.

This was just about how to count 6/8 time and not a theoretical discussion on the best way to convey it.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes. The upstroke between and the downstroke before make a pair of 16ths:

          |1   x   x   2   x   x  |1...
          |D   U   D u D   U   D u|D...
8th notes: |   |       |   |             
16ths:             |_|         |_|

Thanks for clearing that up. (And thank you for that link!!!)

Now, my next question is how does one coordinate tapping the foot and counting. I know you tap two times over the measure, and for the first down/up foot tap, you count over it "ONE two three," and for the second down/up foot tap, you count over it "FOUR five six."

But how do you space the triplet of eighths over a movement of up/down with your foot.

What I'm saying is, I don't know if I'm evenly spacing out the 1 2 3 counting over the foot tap down/up movement.

From the moment your foot starts to go down to the moment it's back up, where over that movement, where should the foot be when you're saying ONE, where should the foot be when you're saying two, where should the foot be when you're saying three?

I know that sounds crazy, like take out a ruler and measure how many inches toward the ground or back up from the ground the foot should be, but I really have trouble going down/up with my foot and dividing that movement into a triplet, so far as saying aloud "ONE two three" over that down/up foot tap (and likewise, saying "FOUR five six" over the second down/up foot tap).


---

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

You know folks...

I bet richard (the original poster) has the difference identified to his satisfaction now. I know I do.

Six pages long and still going strong...

[stanron]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Thanks for clearing that up. (And thank you for that link!!!)

Now, my next question is how does one coordinate tapping the foot and counting. I know you tap two times over the measure, and for the first down/up foot tap, you count over it "ONE two three," and for the second down/up foot tap, you count over it "FOUR five six."

But how do you space the triplet of eighths over a movement of up/down with your foot.

What I'm saying is, I don't know if I'm evenly spacing out the 1 2 3 counting over the foot tap down/up movement.

From the moment your foot starts to go down to the moment it's back up, where over that movement, where should the foot be when you're saying ONE, where should the foot be when you're saying two, where should the foot be when you're saying three?

I know that sounds crazy, like take out a ruler and measure how many inches toward the ground or back up from the ground the foot should be, but I really have trouble going down/up with my foot and dividing that movement into a triplet, so far as saying aloud "ONE two three" over that down/up foot tap (and likewise, saying "FOUR five six" over the second down/up foot tap).


---

I thought someone would have answered this by now.

Foot goes down on one, stays down on two and comes back up on three and repeats this for the second half of the bar.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

Thanks for clearing that up. (And thank you for that link!!!)

Now, my next question is how does one coordinate tapping the foot and counting. I know you tap two times over the measure, and for the first down/up foot tap, you count over it "ONE two three," and for the second down/up foot tap, you count over it "FOUR five six."

But how do you space the triplet of eighths over a movement of up/down with your foot.

What I'm saying is, I don't know if I'm evenly spacing out the 1 2 3 counting over the foot tap down/up movement.

From the moment your foot starts to go down to the moment it's back up, where over that movement, where should the foot be when you're saying ONE, where should the foot be when you're saying two, where should the foot be when you're saying three?

I know that sounds crazy, like take out a ruler and measure how many inches toward the ground or back up from the ground the foot should be, but I really have trouble going down/up with my foot and dividing that movement into a triplet, so far as saying aloud "ONE two three" over that down/up foot tap (and likewise, saying "FOUR five six" over the second down/up foot tap).


---

Two things on foot tapping:

1. It makes no sense (IMO) to think about sub-dividing the beat in foot taps. It's either down or up. It goes down on the beat (two beats in 6/8, remember), and it doesn't much matter when it comes up.

2. If you can't do it in time without thinking about it, don't do it; it won't help, and just gives you one more physical activity to think about.
If you can do it naturally in time without thinking (subconsciously while thinking about what you're playing) - then you don't need to do it anyway (because that means you have a good inner sense of time.)
IOW, foot tapping is of no use in helping you keep time. If your time is bad, then your foot tapping will be irregular, therefore of no use. If your time is good - then you don't need to tap!
People with good time who tap their feet do it because they feel like it, because they want to express the rhythm with more of their body than just their hands; they can keep time fine without doing it, but with some it's an effort to suppress the urge to tap, so they just let their feet do it.
(I sometimes tap my foot when I play (if sitting down) sometimes not. Makes no difference to my time-keeping.)

If you need a steady independent reference for your time-keeping (and it sounds like you do we all do sometimes ), use a metronome with 3 different sounds: One for beat 1, one for subsidiary beats (4th 8th note in 6/8), and one for beat subdivisions (other 8th notes in 6/8). You can find free ones online, or as iPhone apps.
Listen and try to internalise the sound of the metre, its pattern in time - without counting. (Yeah, there's a challenge...)