Songwriting Approach

[standup]

I write quickly theses days. Couple of days, a week at most.

I started doing “February Album Writing Month” over 10 years ago. It’s a community and a website, FAWM.org, and the goal is to write 14 songs in 28 days in February. Not great songs, just songs.

But doing that made me far better at taking an idea to it’s logical conclusion..

Also, overheard conversations are often really inspiring. Not so much in the last year, but before. I saw a woman and I assume her young granddaughter walking down the sidewalk, and Grandma said, “Well, we can’t WALK to New Jersey”, and boom, there’s a song. That one was not a “keeper” but it was worth chasing for a couple days.

[Gdjjr]

Originally Posted by standup

I write quickly theses days. Couple of days, a week at most.

I started doing “February Album Writing Month” over 10 years ago. It’s a community and a website, FAWM.org, and the goal is to write 14 songs in 28 days in February. Not great songs, just songs.

But doing that made me far better at taking an idea to it’s logical conclusion..

Also, overheard conversations are often really inspiring. Not so much in the last year, but before. I saw a woman and I assume her young granddaughter walking down the sidewalk, and Grandma said, “Well, we can’t WALK to New Jersey”, and boom, there’s a song. That one was not a “keeper” but it was worth chasing for a couple days.

Keep working on it- it could become a keeper- I read a story this morning about Hank Williams writing A Tear in my Beer - 40 years later it became an instant hit- he wrote it when a man told him he needed a drinking song for an album he was working on-

and too, I've just learned, or realized, I should say, that doing and re-doing songs makes them better than the original- for me anyway.

Which brings to mind a couple of things: Miracles appear in the strangest of places .... and Hello Walls- the story behind it came from Willie needing to write a song when he was a paid writer and just looking at the wall-

A few months ago, I wrote Somethin More Than A Memory- it was inspired from a message board conversation when a participant said, you need to leave something more than a memory behind- it is, to me, one of my better songs-

[Fred_Garvin]

In addition to the same influences and sources others have mentioned above, I also get ideas from dreams. Often I'll dream a lick, tune, progression or song idea. Clearly in my dreams and lingers long enough after waking to jot it down or quick voice memo to retain it. I keep a Dream Diary next to my bed so I can jot down whatever it was quickly upon waking before it's lost.

[jseth]

Funny, I read this thread when you first put it up, but did not respond... but I will do, now.

Nowadays? I take ANY song the way it comes! Doesn't matter if it's a melody or lyric or a riff/groove... I latch right on to it and see what happens. My general rule of thumb is: if the initial inspiration sticks around for a while, it's worth writing a tune with it... almost like the song WANTS to be written.

I wrote my first song when I was 13, and have been writing ever since. As a young man, I would sleep with a notepad and pen next to my bed, and wake up in the middle of the night to write down an idea. I was hyper-critical about what I wrote and threw away a LOT of potentially good ideas and songs if they didn't "measure up" to my own artistic sense and standards. There have been many times when I wished I could get back those old songs that I threw away, and would counsel any writer to not just trash something because you have a feeling that it's "not right" or not "good enough", as there may be a time when it will appeal to you, when it will be worthwhile to pursue.

After decades of learning about and implementing music theory and harmony into my playing and writing, I've gotten to the point where "simpler is better". Many times, with recent songs, I've thought about adding some nifty chord change or alternate bridge to a song, "just because I can"... but I stop and ask myself if the song REALLY needs or wants that, to be effective. Usually, it doesn't.

Generally, I have between 5 and 20 pieces that are in some evolution of becoming. I've never been one to "force" a song lyric, and it's important to me that the song "says" what I want it to say... so I don't take the easy way out. After all, they are pieces of me, and I want them to have that level of integrity... not meaning that they have to be deep or important, because sometimes a lighter approach is what works! I just refuse to resort to something cheesy, just to finish a song. Heck, I've had/have songs that are 85% complete, but they aren't "quite there" yet... so I let them hang around and massage them, work with them, until I get them where I want them to be.

Although it's always wonderful when folks really relate to a tune I've written, I've don't get into the trap of "will John Q. Public like this?" I love it when they do, but, in the final analysis, I KNOW WHAT'S GOOD... and what isn't... so I write as I see fit.

Hope this helps someone along their journey... now, getting songs published or having them be "hits"? That's a whole 'nother can o' worms, right there... especially nowadays!

[Gdjjr]

Originally Posted by jseth

Funny, I read this thread when you first put it up, but did not respond... but I will do, now.

Nowadays? I take ANY song the way it comes! Doesn't matter if it's a melody or lyric or a riff/groove... I latch right on to it and see what happens. My general rule of thumb is: if the initial inspiration sticks around for a while, it's worth writing a tune with it... almost like the song WANTS to be written.

I wrote my first song when I was 13, and have been writing ever since. As a young man, I would sleep with a notepad and pen next to my bed, and wake up in the middle of the night to write down an idea. I was hyper-critical about what I wrote and threw away a LOT of potentially good ideas and songs if they didn't "measure up" to my own artistic sense and standards. There have been many times when I wished I could get back those old songs that I threw away, and would counsel any writer to not just trash something because you have a feeling that it's "not right" or not "good enough", as there may be a time when it will appeal to you, when it will be worthwhile to pursue.

After decades of learning about and implementing music theory and harmony into my playing and writing, I've gotten to the point where "simpler is better". Many times, with recent songs, I've thought about adding some nifty chord change or alternate bridge to a song, "just because I can"... but I stop and ask myself if the song REALLY needs or wants that, to be effective. Usually, it doesn't.

Generally, I have between 5 and 20 pieces that are in some evolution of becoming. I've never been one to "force" a song lyric, and it's important to me that the song "says" what I want it to say... so I don't take the easy way out. After all, they are pieces of me, and I want them to have that level of integrity... not meaning that they have to be deep or important, because sometimes a lighter approach is what works! I just refuse to resort to something cheesy, just to finish a song. Heck, I've had/have songs that are 85% complete, but they aren't "quite there" yet... so I let them hang around and massage them, work with them, until I get them where I want them to be.

Although it's always wonderful when folks really relate to a tune I've written, I've don't get into the trap of "will John Q. Public like this?" I love it when they do, but, in the final analysis, I KNOW WHAT'S GOOD... and what isn't... so I write as I see fit.

Hope this helps someone along their journey... now, getting songs published or having them be "hits"? That's a whole 'nother can o' worms, right there... especially nowadays!

Wish we had a "like" button or an applause emoji! Excellent reply.

[FrankHudson]

First off, what's a song? It's anything you can get away with.* I have considerably different aims with various things I compose, which I think aids me. When I don't want to, or can't write one kind of song, I'll write another. This leads me to use varied methods.

My current project has me using other people's words a lot. As a person who wrote their own lyrics for decades, this is a new way to go about songwriting. I still start with the words more often, but working with words that weren't intended by their writers to be songs have given me new tactics to work with irregular lines and so forth. And I will create a musical structure and then look for words (mine or another's) to fit it too, just not as often. On the other hand I spent nearly a decade writing a bunch of guitar "instrumentals" where words weren't used.

Musically I love to work with different sounds, instruments, chord progressions. I'll even give myself exercises to break habits and expectations. I don't play keyboards, but I'll write on them, which throws me off the cliff where I have no playing skills to fall back on and I have to invent a parachute.

Over my life, I've found that I most often write words while doing something else, walking, repetitive work, riding my bike, etc. I could compose multiple verses in my head and then later (sometimes a day or more later) write them down and polish them up. I came to believe that the part of making them memorable enough to write down that much later might improve the lyric. Now as I age, I'm scared I'll forget and tend to transcribe things faster. I almost always revise a few times, but not endlessly. My aim to create a song that works, not a perfect song.

Chipotle upthread wrote about someone who recommended writing regularly, even if one has to relay on Sturgeon's Law. I think there's something to that. In my project I've written over 500 combinations of words and music that I've put out publicly. Some might disagree which are songs at all, and of course opinions on their value will vary. Myself, I think I exceed Sturgeon's Law, ("90% of everything is crap") but then I may be cutting myself some slack in thinking that a 20-25% is pretty good. And if anyone hears one of my lower 20% (classed that way in my own subsequent judgement, which changes over time) I can say: you should hear the ones that aren't public! I've tried more badly executed ideas than I like to remember.

So to sum up: exercise and "cross-train" your creativity is my current method in a nutshell.



*And I can hear someone saying: yeah, but that could be self-indulgent crap of no value, I want a song people want to listen to, you know good stuff. And I'd answer, a popular song is what's popular. Things that have risen to popularity over the years seem quite varied to me, and doesn't always agree with my considered ideas of valuable.

[k_russell]

I normally start with a story to tell, something to describe, or some kind of message that I want to send to someone. Next, I usually decide on tempo and the metering.

I work melody, chord progression, structure, and lyrics together to build the song. Often, I revise lyrics, change chords and melody, and structure. Typically a song goes through about four drafts before I'm ready to perform it.

[foxo]

I usually write lyrics first. I thought it would be interesting to offer how I wrote one of my songs. Hopefully you don’t find this exercise too pretentious but instead curious in how songwriting methods differ or compare to yours.

I was reading a Robert Burns poem, Sappho Redivivus. The first line jumped out at me and I knew immediately I had to use it in a song. Technically this is theft, but as good old Rabbie has been dead for a few centuries I don’t think he’d mind. I was inspired by Bob Dylan’s clever use of Ovid poems in his later works.

I wrote a melancholic chorus based around the line “lov'd, neglected and forgot”, bringing to mind the bittersweet nature of an old relationship that was both heated and passionate. I tried to contrast the loving images with the less loving, the material with the immaterial.

For the first verse I wanted to bring to mind the finite nature of the relationship, so my immediate thought was of Venice, a place of beauty and romance, sadly sinking into the sea.

For the second verse I wanted to highlight that though I once sought freedom from the relationship, it wasn’t all that I envisaged. As a nod to my theft from Rabbie Burns I mention a title of one of his poem’s, Passion’s Cry.

The final verse concludes that though I may be deeply sorrowful I will move on, that my memory will eventually fail me regardless of my wants and that things will eventually return to how they were before.

Loved / Neglected

The boats float down a Venetian scene
Through the tapestries of memories in my dreams
Just as we were lovers long before the fall
Time degrades and crumbles ‘til there’s nothing left at all

All the times we kissed
All the times we fought
All the things we loved
All the things we sought
Now they’re abandoned, it’s all gone to rot
Loved, neglected, and then forgot

From the stormy sea to the farthest shore
Once what meant my freedom means nothing anymore
How was I to realise my conscience was in vain
Passion’s cry inflicted this needless pain

All the times we kissed
All the times we fought
All the things we loved
All the things we sought
Now they’re abandoned, it’s all gone to rot
Loved, neglected, and then forgot

Sorrow reigns eternal and it reigns alone
One day I’ll get used to being back on my own
The pictures of your face will leave vaults of my mind
I’ll search and try to bring them back with nothing left to find

All the times we kissed
All the times we fought
All the things we loved
All the things we sought
Now they’re abandoned, it’s all gone to rot
Loved, neglected, and then forgot



I hope you found this interesting and I would love to hear how you wrote one of your songs.

[Gdjjr]

Originally Posted by foxo

I usually write lyrics first. I thought it would be interesting to offer how I wrote one of my songs. Hopefully you don’t find this exercise too pretentious but instead curious in how songwriting methods differ or compare to yours.

I was reading a Robert Burns poem, Sappho Redivivus. The first line jumped out at me and I knew immediately I had to use it in a song. Technically this is theft, but as good old Rabbie has been dead for a few centuries I don’t think he’d mind. I was inspired by Bob Dylan’s clever use of Ovid poems in his later works.

I wrote a melancholic chorus based around the line “lov'd, neglected and forgot”, bringing to mind the bittersweet nature of an old relationship that was both heated and passionate. I tried to contrast the loving images with the less loving, the material with the immaterial.

For the first verse I wanted to bring to mind the finite nature of the relationship, so my immediate thought was of Venice, a place of beauty and romance, sadly sinking into the sea.

For the second verse I wanted to highlight that though I once sought freedom from the relationship, it wasn’t all that I envisaged. As a nod to my theft from Rabbie Burns I mention a title of one of his poem’s, Passion’s Cry.

The final verse concludes that though I may be deeply sorrowful I will move on, that my memory will eventually fail me regardless of my wants and that things will eventually return to how they were before.

Loved / Neglected

The boats float down a Venetian scene
Through the tapestries of memories in my dreams
Just as we were lovers long before the fall
Time degrades and crumbles ‘til there’s nothing left at all

All the times we kissed
All the times we fought
All the things we loved
All the things we sought
Now they’re abandoned, it’s all gone to rot
Loved, neglected, and then forgot

From the stormy sea to the farthest shore
Once what meant my freedom means nothing anymore
How was I to realise my conscience was in vain
Passion’s cry inflicted this needless pain

All the times we kissed
All the times we fought
All the things we loved
All the things we sought
Now they’re abandoned, it’s all gone to rot
Loved, neglected, and then forgot

Sorrow reigns eternal and it reigns alone
One day I’ll get used to being back on my own
The pictures of your face will leave vaults of my mind
I’ll search and try to bring them back with nothing left to find

All the times we kissed
All the times we fought
All the things we loved
All the things we sought
Now they’re abandoned, it’s all gone to rot
Loved, neglected, and then forgot



I hope you found this interesting and I would love to hear how you wrote one of your songs.

That's good- not sure I'd call it theft though

I wrote, Let The Old Man In, as a counter/rebuttal and parody to Don't Let The Old Man In, by Toby Keith, which was the theme song in the Clint Eastwood movie, The Mule-

Full disclosure: I've not seen the movie
I posted the song in this forum, under the title, Music Plagiarism- I did that because I used the same basic tune as Toby Keiths song-

Let the old man in, give him a key to the door
He's been outside, it's a lot colder than before
His summer is gone, his winter is here
Sometimes he can't see a lot of times he just don't hear
And he can't hold his breath, like he used to do
Figures what's the use, nobody really need him to

Can't teach an old dog new tricks, that's what comes to mind
Has a familiar ring that's older then time
But he kept playing the game, when everything he knew changed
And he's still winning, cause he lived life his own way

Play the hand you were dealt, forget what their rules say
You know you win, when, you live life your own way

Lived his life, the best that he could
Not really bad, just not real good
All the stuff left behind, won't matter anyway
What really counts is, backing up what you say

Play the hand you were dealt, forget what their rules say
You know you win, when, you live life your own way
You know you win, when, you live life your own way
...............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPjgxz8LKg0


I do my dead level best to live by that too

[The Bard Rocks]

I have always been melody-centric. When listening to something new, I pay much closer attention to the melody than the words. In writing, the melody comes first and gets shaped and honed pretty thoroughly before I get to thinking of lyrics. Some remain as instrumentals and I am fine with that. Usually the next step is for me to look for inspiration on the type of song my melody sounds and feels like. Once this inspiration strikes, the lyrics come relatively easily. I may write and rewrite things many times, remove verses, and all that - but that's just refining.

[RedJoker]

One thing that I've found helps me come up with an interesting melody or fill or something is to try to figure out songs from memory. For instance, I wanted to learn a Jimmy Buffett song and I knew it was in the key of A. I started playing around, trying to fingerpick the intro. Once I thought I got it pretty close, I listened to the recording and found I wasn't very close. Yes, I got a note or two in the right place but it's clearly not the same.

So, I now have a new intro / melody at my disposal for an upcoming song.

[mcmars]

Originally Posted by jseth

Funny, I read this thread when you first put it up, but did not respond... but I will do, now.

Nowadays? I take ANY song the way it comes! Doesn't matter if it's a melody or lyric or a riff/groove... I latch right on to it and see what happens. My general rule of thumb is: if the initial inspiration sticks around for a while, it's worth writing a tune with it... almost like the song WANTS to be written.

I wrote my first song when I was 13, and have been writing ever since. As a young man, I would sleep with a notepad and pen next to my bed, and wake up in the middle of the night to write down an idea. I was hyper-critical about what I wrote and threw away a LOT of potentially good ideas and songs if they didn't "measure up" to my own artistic sense and standards. There have been many times when I wished I could get back those old songs that I threw away, and would counsel any writer to not just trash something because you have a feeling that it's "not right" or not "good enough", as there may be a time when it will appeal to you, when it will be worthwhile to pursue.

After decades of learning about and implementing music theory and harmony into my playing and writing, I've gotten to the point where "simpler is better". Many times, with recent songs, I've thought about adding some nifty chord change or alternate bridge to a song, "just because I can"... but I stop and ask myself if the song REALLY needs or wants that, to be effective. Usually, it doesn't.

Generally, I have between 5 and 20 pieces that are in some evolution of becoming. I've never been one to "force" a song lyric, and it's important to me that the song "says" what I want it to say... so I don't take the easy way out. After all, they are pieces of me, and I want them to have that level of integrity... not meaning that they have to be deep or important, because sometimes a lighter approach is what works! I just refuse to resort to something cheesy, just to finish a song. Heck, I've had/have songs that are 85% complete, but they aren't "quite there" yet... so I let them hang around and massage them, work with them, until I get them where I want them to be.

Although it's always wonderful when folks really relate to a tune I've written, I've don't get into the trap of "will John Q. Public like this?" I love it when they do, but, in the final analysis, I KNOW WHAT'S GOOD... and what isn't... so I write as I see fit.

Hope this helps someone along their journey... now, getting songs published or having them be "hits"? That's a whole 'nother can o' worms, right there... especially nowadays!

Your statement, "There have been many times when I wished I could get back those old songs that I threw away, and would counsel any writer to not just trash something because you have a feeling that it's "not right" or not "good enough", as there may be a time when it will appeal to you, when it will be worthwhile to pursue.", stuck a resonate chord with me. I just wrote a song about perfectionism this weeks, "Good enough is good enough".

Seems in our world now we are all drilled in school and in upbringing to be perfect, and this helps us be productive in jobs and personal life. But then it also brings much frustration when things are not just perfect and expectations are not met, then disappointment leads to depression. So the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater, so to speak. I like songs about real life stuff, does the world really need another love song, lol?

It is a long blues rap john prine kind of ballad, but here is the chorus line:

Chorus: Cus good enough is good enough
I’m a changing my old ways from perfectionist stuff
Being never up to par is way too tough
Always crying inside “I’m just not good enough!”

[Bob from Brooklyn]

I can generally come up with the tunes pretty easily. My issue is lyrics. To start I will just write words that fit rhythmically and then start chipping away. Soon a title will fall out of those words and then it's off to the races.

[Gdjjr]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

I can generally come up with the tunes pretty easily. My issue is lyrics. To start I will just write words that fit rhythmically and then start chipping away. Soon a title will fall out of those words and then it's off to the races.

I had a hard time with a title to my last song, A Smile That's Not A Lie- it seemed to me a couple different ones would work, but, I finally settled on the linked words-

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by StevieB86

Do you plan the songs you write or do you start writing lyrics and improvise? Do you edit the songs you write?

I've been writing songs for 45 years. The method that works for me is, from what I've gathered over the years, the least used method among songwriters: the words and the melody arrive at the same time. In other words, I don't simply write words and find a melody that fits. As I'm coming up with the lyric, I'm singing it from the start. It's a very organic process and I can count on one hand how many songwriters I've met over the years that write that way.

The melody of the song is determined by whichever lyrics I've written first. Once the melody is set, the rest of the lyrics are written to fit the melody, so I suppose at some point in the process you could say the melody is determining the lyrics but that's not true for the entire song, only for what comes after the initial parts of the song are written.

I've tried lyrics first, I've tried melody first ...I have nothing to show for those efforts. My method does lead to some problems, however. I don't always write with an instrument at hand. Sometimes I'll write a song entirely in my head, just writing down the lyrics as they come. I don't need to write down the melody because the way I write, the melody never leaves my head. It's married to those words. So, problem... sometimes I have the lyrics on paper and the melody in my head, then I have to figure out how to play the song and I'm not always successful in coming up with a guitar arrangement I like. But maybe some songs aren't meant to be acoustic guitar songs.

Here are two examples in very different styles.


I wrote both of those songs but I've never played either on guitar. Neither seemed to fit the instrument so I've never performed either because of that (that's not me on the keyboards, my keyboard chops are not that good). I'd rather not write songs that don't mesh well with an acoustic guitar but I don't always know the song won't while I'm writing it if I'm writing it in my head, rather than with a guitar in hand.

My method is odd but it's what works for me even if it doesn't always work as planned.