Bracing Double top ....

[Rollie]

How light can you go when bracing a double top guitar ? Is the x brace still required for steel string ?, or would a lighter fan style pattern hold up to the tension of steel....?

[gregg]

You can go lighter, I always used the main X....remember that even if you could go without braces that doesn't mean it is going to sound better than light braces placed with purpose

Greg

[eflatminor]

I've only recently learned about the idea of double tops. They are typically described as theoretically superior. True in your opinion? Other than cost, what's the downside or more likely, the trade off?

I have to say that the idea of something made by DuPoint in my guitar is somewhat off putting. Most man-made chemical based forms not musical to my ears. For instance, in my stereo system, I remove plastics, rubber-like supports, and anything overly heavy...inside the components and out. I have a stereo and 'rack' system that is as restricted to two elements as possible: metal (steel and where possible, brass) and wood...and is as light and responsive as possible. I like my guitars the same way.

That said, I haven't played a double top but I will listen with an open ear.

Nomex®...where in the heck does that grow?!

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by eflatminor

<<snip>>

Nomex®...where in the heck does that grow?!

Montana...near the dental floss...

[LEARNINGAGAIN]

Mr Pattis, you sure are an overnight sensation.....I wonder how many people here understand your reference....it was VERY funny..... and of course, I have to finish with--and remember, do not eat the yellow snow...

[CraigRyder]

Yup, overnight!

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Rollie

How light can you go when bracing a double top guitar ? Is the x brace still required for steel string ?, or would a lighter fan style pattern hold up to the tension of steel....?

Some have gone to no bracing.

Downsides? You can push a finger into them. I'll leave tone out of it.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by eflatminor

I've only recently learned about the idea of double tops. They are typically described as theoretically superior. True in your opinion? Other than cost, what's the downside or more likely, the trade off?

Commenting on just the tone aspects, if something is "better" in some way then it has to be different in some way. That implies a tradeoff. For example the more overtones in the sound the less the fundamental tone will stand out. Depending on what style of music you are playing and your personal preferences moving one way or the other in overtone content may be preferable.

My take on the double tops I have played (also own one) is that they can play loudly, they respond to lighter and more aggressive playing more uniformly, and they have a quite even tone across the strings and up and down the neck. They have a less woody, organic sound which correctly or incorrectly I attribute to their construction causing the top to vibrate in a more uniform motion (less complicated and intense Chladni patterns http://www.classicalguitars.ca/resonances.htm ). This may be considered a plus or minus depending again on the music and the player preferences. Personally I both like and do not like double tops for this reason. Having more than one guitar helps solve some of the dilemma.

[Haans]

Pretty subjective stuff.
That said, I don't like them and don't care for the tonal qualities on the ones I've heard.

[kwang]

If you are interested in double top, you should check out Peter's guitar @ Cornerstone Guitar, the sound from the double top is 3D to me.

[Shabby Chic]

Depends on how thick/stiff the double top is. A top thick enough to withstand the tension of the strings could easily be engineered, just like a solid top could be made thick enough to forego bracing. Does not mean it's a good idea.

[Dwight]

I think this one sounds ok, it' a Woolson Soundcraft LG Doubletop in walnut/lutz-cedar. That's my friend Robert Messore playing in DADGAD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGmAqRCfM0E

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

.........
Downsides? You can push a finger into them. I'll leave tone out of it.

Exactly. Because the tops are very thin, they are very fragile. Repairs and refinishing are a big concern. In my mind, a double top would have to be significantly better to justify owning.

[ljguitar]

Hi Rollie…
I bet if you were to talk with Tim McKnight, or Paul Woolson (who have both been building and engineering and experimenting with double tops for years) you'd find that they use bracing to direct the sound to useful areas of the top, not merely for strength.

I've played double topped acoustic steel strings by 4 builders now - and one was like cardboard, and the rest were amazingly supple and responsive. All used bracing. To be fair, the first was 6 years back and was during the builder's (Charles Fox) experimental phase.

One was nearly explosive...like a car which could go from 0-100mph now or ppp-fff instantly to keep it in musical terms. It was Tim's Diamond guitar. It was like driving a small car with a huge racing motor in it...

Paul Woolson's was like a very powerful sports car - small guitar with huge sound, and great tone.

A question I've considered in thinking about double tops is how fragile the top skin is should there ever be need for a bridge reset (would it tear the wood) and how would one repair top impact damage in a small section of a doubled top?

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

<<snip>>
A question I've considered in thinking about double tops is how fragile the top skin is should there ever be need for a bridge reset (would it tear the wood) and how would one repair top impact damage in a small section of a doubled top?

The bridge plate area of double-tops is generally a full wood-to-wood contact (between the two plates), with no Nomex in this area. This is the only way to clamp a bridge down for gluing in the first place. I've never seen one built otherwise.

In regards to your latter question, let me ask another question; how would you repair the surface of a damaged top for a solid wood (or traditional laminate) guitar? If a guitar top (any top) has damage through the finish and into the wood, it will pretty-much be forever cosmetically-challenged. The thin skin of the outside of a double-top might indeed pierce easier than a solid (or laminate), but a solid wood top is far more likely to develop grain cracks. Each have their benefits and drawbacks. Nomex provides a different kind of support structure, with different results to stability and tone.