design question for a custom order

[Ricker]

i really like 00s. and 12 frets. and short scales, but this is not as important.

it seems possible that as a guitar gets smaller the effect of a cutaway might be more significant. i have seen it written multiple times that in larger guitars it doesn't affect either tone or volume enough to be noticable to most people.

i'm very interested in ordering a custom 00, but would I need a deep body to compensate for the cutaway? one small luthier I spoke to said it would be a good idea, but another from a larger company said probably not necessary.

the base guitar I'm looking at has a short scale. if the cutaway would take away from the original guitar's qualities, would leaving the scale long and moving the bridge down on the body compensate enough? add volume.

I realize a guitar is like a sculpture and none are exactly the same, that it is a combination of multiple factors that like a chemical formula work to produce the output. But generally speaking i'm looking for opinions and hope to find either a consensus or majority vote .

thanks very much,

[jeastman]

Hey Rick,

I'd say trust the suggestion of whoever you end up getting to build it. One thing you can do is opt for the deeper body and get a wedge body so it doesn't feel larger.

[Howard Klepper]

I think it would be a mistake to think that deepening the body could simply cancel the loss of volume from having a cutaway. You don't get the same sound by making the volume the same, regardless of where you get it. There a reasons to have a deep body, and also reasons against it. These are pretty well independent of whether the guitar has a cutaway.

I have found the effect of a cutaway on sound to be negligible, as have most if not all other builders. A smaller guitar is smaller in the upper bout, so the loss of volume is proportional, and should not have any greater effect than it does in a large guitar.

[jeastman]

Howard, is that because the cut away is mostly above the large brace running above the sound hole? I guess that would all make sense then since that area wouldn't vibrate much anyhow.

[guitarsanyone]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I think it would be a mistake to think that deepening the body could simply cancel the loss of volume from having a cutaway. You don't get the same sound by making the volume the same, regardless of where you get it. There a reasons to have a deep body, and also reasons against it. These are pretty well independent of whether the guitar has a cutaway.

I have found the effect of a cutaway on sound to be negligible, as have most if not all other builders. A smaller guitar is smaller in the upper bout, so the loss of volume is proportional, and should not have any greater effect than it does in a large guitar.

I have not found any material loss of sound effect by having a cutaway. I would entrust the builder ensure that the guitar that is being constructed in accordance with your expectations and not interfere too much with the design aspects. Stick to what you are good at and let the luthier do the same!

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Ricker

i really like 00s. and 12 frets. and short scales, but this is not as important.

it seems possible that as a guitar gets smaller the effect of a cutaway might be more significant. i have seen it written multiple times that in larger guitars it doesn't affect either tone or volume enough to be noticable to most people.

i'm very interested in ordering a custom 00, but would I need a deep body to compensate for the cutaway? one small luthier I spoke to said it would be a good idea, but another from a larger company said probably not necessary.

the base guitar I'm looking at has a short scale. if the cutaway would take away from the original guitar's qualities, would leaving the scale long and moving the bridge down on the body compensate enough? add volume.

I realize a guitar is like a sculpture and none are exactly the same, that it is a combination of multiple factors that like a chemical formula work to produce the output. But generally speaking i'm looking for opinions and hope to find either a consensus or majority vote .

thanks very much,

Adding depth could compensate for loss of cavity volume due to a cutaway, but I believe there would be significant other effects from a deeper body. I wouldn't add body depth unless the builder could explain the effects it would have and you are sure you want that effect. To me, the depth has an effect on projection versus how the sound wraps around to the player, and has an effect on the immediacy of the sound versus a swelling type of sound. I also feel the scale length and bridge placement would also have more effect on the playability and tone than adding a cutaway.

What builder/model are you looking at?

[Brackett Instruments]

I've never been able to hear any difference caused by a cutaway. Also, deeper bodies are a double edged sword. In other words, making a body deeped doesn't make "magical good tone" happen. It all depends on what kind of tone, timbre and response you're looking for. Trust your builder. If you don't feel like you can trust your builder find one you can.

[stuartb]

I've asked the question to a couple of builders.

The response has been that while a cutaway will often not impair projection - how loud a guitar sounds, it can have an impact on the depth of the base. I have found some truth in this, though again, it would depend on the builder.

Stuart

[Bruce Sexauer]

A body cavity that is smaller by volume will have a higher natural resonance, and while this MUST have an effect on the guitar, I consider it to be of very small significance compared to any number of other considerations.

I do not think a cutaway makes a predictable enough difference in any aspect of a guitar's sound to be a deal breaker, one way or the other. Again, other factors play bigger.

There is no way my smallest normal guitar, the "0" I make, has any significant tonal or volume differential pattern emerging between the cutaway and non-cutaway versions. There are around 10 of them so far, and each seems better than the last. About half are cutaways.

The most important part of the guitar body is what is below the sound-hole, IMO, the egg shaped lower bout, and the cutaway does not play on that at all.

If I were to try to name the next most important component, I currently think it is the longest and shortest over all dimensions inside the sound box. Like the difference between the 19 1/4 inch long OM, and the 20 1/2 inch long 000. For instance.

Deepening a body may indeed enhance the bass resonance of a given body template, but I am thinking it has an even more profound effect on treble acuity and overall projection. Rocking the boat is always dangerous, though it can be entertaining.

[Ricker]

thank you everyone. this has been very informative. I believe my question has been answered and then some.

thanks again,

Rick,

[lclyman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

If I were to try to name the next most important component, I currently think it is the longest and shortest over all dimensions inside the sound box. Like the difference between the 19 1/4 inch long OM, and the 20 1/2 inch long 000. For instance.

Bruce,
Could you elaborate on how those changes to the body length effect the overall sound..?

Do you think there's a "sweet spot" body depth for any given body length..?

Thanks,
LC

[kirkham13]

Just guessing, but I think a shallower body may give more clarity to the trebles, similar to an archtop being punchy and immediate... resolving the need for more bass could be in light bracing, bridge placement, wood choice, or maybe a fan fret...
the boomy sound of a dred is likely a result of depth, which I imagine is why you see a lot of mahogany and maple to control the sound... (??)

[Bruce Sexauer]

I thought that almost everyone would be pretty aware of the tonal difference between an OM and a 000. When I say 000 I do mean a long scale 12 fret Martin, and When I say OM I mean a long scale 14 fret Martin, or facsimiles there of such as the Schoenberg Soloists and Standards such as I have been making for the last 15 years or so. These are very close to the same guitar except for the body size, which is why I mention them.

Because I approach the work as an artist, I like to leave as many parameters in place as possible so that I can understand my changes and move forward. I can effect huge tonal variation without altering body cavity dimension, and have found maintaining balance easier if I don't mess with depth unless it is for a very good reason.

Go listen to those Martins!

[ediverudt]

As far as I know there seems to be a difference in bridge placement on the om VS ooo if you use the same exact body.
It has to do with the 12 freat vs 14 thing. To my ear the guitars with the 12 freats sound better it may be due to the placement of the bridge.

As far as putting a longer scale on a guitar to compensate for a cutaway? That would be a little like putting larger tires on your car to compensate for green paint. The affect of a larger scale is so much more than the affect of a cutaway (since a cutaway done right affects looks more than quality of tone) The same way larger tires will throw your speedometer off and change handling significantly a longer scale should not be used if you have not optimized body shape and bracing appropriately. That said Dragsters use smaller tires than world land speed record holders because there is a different objective fast quick VS top speed. Scale is Energy in the long run, longer scales = more tension = more string energy into the equation = the possibility of a louder sound. Notice I say possibility, if you have to much tension you will deaden the top and keep it from moving and there is a point where 2x the force will only result in .5 more volume which if less efficient. Time and time again I have found that people are impressed with efficient and responsive guitars not necessarily really loud ones. Efficiency of sound propagation is one factor like power to weight. That 800 pound racing frame with 600hp VS the 4 ton semi truck with 1000HP. In my humble opinion a 12 fret ooo is a better sounding guitar with or without the cutaway all other things being equal.

See if you can play a guitar by your luthier that has a om scale and a ooo with or without a cutaway, as far as a remember string spacing is also different (at least on old martins) and you may like the feel of one VS the other anyway.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Bridge location in OM vs 000 is almost identical in the Martin paradigm. The upper bout of the body is the part that takes up most of the slack.