cheap archtops

[tbeltrans]

Way back when, ZZ Top sang about "cheap sunglasses". These days, we have "cheap archtops. What amazes me is just how good these archtops can be. I have played several over the years and found them to be perfectly acceptable as a main instrument.

Recently, I purchased an Ibanez AF95FM archtop in near mint condition with Ibanez hard shell case for just a couple hundred dollars locally via Craig's List. The owner replaced it with a Godin 5th Avenue. I have never played a Godin 5th Avenue, but of the Godin guitars I have played, all were really fine instruments, again bargains at the price point.

I say "near mint" because, though it is in mint condition as if never take out of the case (it even had the plastic covers on the pickups), the pick guard needed screws tightened a bit so it wouldn't rattle and I also lowered the action to what I am comfortable with.

This is a small guitar (15 1/2" lower bout) with a short scale (24.72") , so it is very comfortable to play. The pickups are called "Super 58". It sounds fine to me, though I have no idea where these stack up in the overall pecking order for low end archtops.

After making the adjustments, I found this guitar to be VERY comfortable to play, more so than most any archtop I have played. I wouldn't say it is better than other archtops, but considering the price point, it would be hard to beat.

So far, I have purchased two guitars via the local Craig's List, both together costing under $1k. The other guitar is an acoustic, Blueridge BR-341 that I bought 2 years back. That guitar is likewise in mint condition and came with a hard shell case. To buy either guitar new, one would need to buy the hard shell case separately along with shipping, adding to the cost.

It seems to me that if one lives in an area with a sizeable population, decent guitars can be had cheap if one has the patience to watch and wait. I much prefer to try before I buy, so buying locally is ideal for me. Cheap guitars could easily become a GAS hobby, but I would rather enjoy those I now have instead of spending what should be playing time, looking for still more bargains.

Tony

[Steve DeRosa]

Try the Godin: the Ibanez is a very good guitar for the money - the 5th Avenue (I'm assuming you mean the CW II electric with two P-90's, which I own BTW) punches way above its weight, physically lighter than the Ibanez, and almost Gretsch-like in its airiness and clarity...

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Try the Godin: the Ibanez is a very good guitar for the money - the 5th Avenue (I'm assuming you mean the CW II electric with two P-90's, which I own BTW) punches way above its weight, physically lighter than the Ibanez, and almost Gretsch-like in its airiness and clarity...

Maybe someday I will have the chance. I wouldn't doubt that the 5th Avenue is a cut above the Ibanez I purchased since every Godin I have played is a very decent instrument, but that doesn't diminish the Ibanez's playability and usefulness to me.

Jake Reichbart has an Ibanez that he told me he paid $300 for. Most of his well over 500 you tube videos and 200+ lessons show him playing it, as well as his long running (25+ years) gig at an upscale restaurant (The Earle) in his home town in Michigan. A person doesn't have to have the best guitar to make good music, as Jake has proven many times over. Jake told me that as far as he is concerned if the guitar has a straight neck and plays well, he is fine with it. He did purchase a Comins GSC-1 within the last couple of years and has done a few videos with it too, but he still uses his Ibanez as well.

Of course, it is entirely possible that "one man's meat is another man's poison" too. As an example, the Blueridge BR-341 is essentially a steel string version of a classical guitar, with its 12 frets to the small body and 1 7/8" nut. From what I have consistently seen in the forums here, most people would not want a fretboard that wide. So a guitar that is well suited to what I like, is something not a lot of other folks might want.

Willie's (a local shop that specializes in vintage guitars and amps), currently has an old Gibson F25 with a 2" nut. I would not be surprised if that guitar sits for a long time before the right person comes along. I would be interested if I didn't already have the Blueridge and my Huss & Dalton with its 1 7/8" nut. Also, I think pick guards on acoustic guitars look silly and prefer mine to have none, while that F25's top is covered in pickguard like a Flamenco typically would be.

https://www.williesguitars.com/produ...25-folksinger/

I have never seen a 5th Avenue, which is why the only thing I said about it is that the person I bought the Ibanez from bought one and was therefore selling the Ibanez. I didn't see his 5th Avenue since when buying on Craig's List folks typically meet in a neutral place rather than one or the other's home. When I said that the Ibanez at its price point would be hard to beat, I didn't intend to compare it to more expensive guitars, but instead to those in its immediate price range. I think those posts that claim that a $300 guitar is superior to a Martin are just plain naïve and laughable and that was not at all my intention in my post.

The seller said that one thing he liked about the 5th Avenue was that the string spacing is somewhat narrower than that of the Ibanez. If that is true, then I might well prefer the Ibanez because the only thing I wish was different on it would be that it have at least a 1 3/4" nut like Eastman archtops apparently do. For me, the specs of the Martin Taylor Maestro archtop seem ideal - small body, short scale and wide 1 13/16" nut. I should have bought one while they were still in production.

If I decide at some point that I will be mainly playing an archtop, I might well decide to look into more expensive models at some point. But at least for the foreseeable future, the Ibanez will be sufficient since there is nothing wrong with it and it plays well. If I did get another, it would have to be local since I really do prefer to try before I buy. Willie's periodically gets in decent vintage Gibson and other brand archtops.

Anyway, I appreciate your input, Steve and all your very informative posts. If I do decide to go for a better archtop, you can be sure I will be seeking your advice here.

Tony

[David Eastwood]

Tony - if you ever decide you want to move that Ibanez on, please let me know.

I’ll gladly give you what you paid for it.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

Tony - if you ever decide you want to move that Ibanez on, please let me know.

I’ll gladly give you what you paid for it.

Thanks David! Straight across trade for your X20! JUST KIDDING!

Tony

[Livingston]

+1 on [inexpensive] archtops!

I have numerous budget archtops that are playable, durable, loud and sound wonderful. Most notably, I have a 2004 Ibanez Artcore United AG195 that has proven itself on many, many gigs.

What do I like? Ibanez Super 58 pickups sound wonderful. Neck has been extremely stable. Polyurethane finish is durable and truly gig worthy. I was in a 10 member horn band for 15 years...tight bandstand...5 or 6 horns plus rhythm section...you're bound to bump into a trombone, sax or trumpet at some point. Try that with a nitrocellulose lacquer finish. Laminated top and back plates allow you to play at very loud volumes without feedback although on occasion, I did have to put a little tape over the f-holes.

I do have nicer quality archtops but I have to say the Ibanez is hard to beat as a workhorse IMHO, especially in a big ensemble.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Maybe someday I will have the chance. I wouldn't doubt that the 5th Avenue is a cut above the Ibanez I purchased since every Godin I have played is a very decent instrument, but that doesn't diminish the Ibanez's playability and usefulness to me...

I have never seen a 5th Avenue*, which is why the only thing I said about it is that the person I bought the Ibanez from bought one and was therefore selling the Ibanez...

Anyway, I appreciate your input, Steve and all your very informative posts. If I do decide to go for a better archtop, you can be sure I will be seeking your advice here...

By way of information I have no problem with Ibanez - I've owned four of them over the years, still own two basses, as I said (and a couple other posters concur) they're very good guitars for the money - and my suggestion to try the Godin was strictly advisory, based on my own favorable experiences as a long-time owner of both a CW II electric and 5th Avenue all-acoustic (also well worth seeking out if you want to explore the unplugged side of the archtop world at minimum cost - check out Robin Wales' comments here and on the General subforum) and your comment (repeated above*) in the original post. As far as I'm concerned Ibanez owns the low-end hollowbody market hands down, and this lifelong Gretsch guy would happily have (and recommend) one of the Artstars over any of the 2000-Series Streamliners in the same pride range...

Thanks for the props BTW and, based on your comments about neck width as well as my own experiences with Ibanez instruments, you may in fact prefer the wider neck of the Godin (a Gibson-like 1.72" versus 1-11/16", and identical to the Seagull mini-jumbo D-profile) if you install a new nut with wider string spacing - while I personally prefer the factory specs, there's plenty of room to play with if you need the extra room...

FWIW Godin may be discontinuing the CW II in the very near future (if they haven't done so already) in favor of the more-expensive Uptown models - they've dropped the price on the factory webpage (while the other hollowbodies have either remained the same or increased in price), GC/MF no longer list them, and Sweetwater seems to be the only US dealer that has any depth of stock (also available factory-direct from Godin FYI) - so you might want to take this into account when looking toward the future. Here's a link to the 5th Avenue webpage:

https://godinguitars.com/product-cat...ics/5th-avenue

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, this was under "archtops" but I see tat you are only discussing electrics.

One name I'd add whether discussing real acoustic archtops or electrics is "Harmony".

They made a wholeload of them nd some are surprisingly good.
I have an early '60s Harmony Monterey which is an excellent instrument, and there are usually a number for sale on Ebay etc., The trick when buying an acoustic archtop is of course to find one that someone has tried to screw a pick up to the top. Floating p/up can work, I suppose, but screwing one onto an acoustic top - doesn't.
It just wrecks the instrument.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

By way of information I have no problem with Ibanez - I've owned four of them over the years, still own two basses, as I said (and a couple other posters concur) they're very good guitars for the money - and my suggestion to try the Godin was strictly advisory, based on my own favorable experiences as a long-time owner of both a CW II electric and 5th Avenue all-acoustic (also well worth seeking out if you want to explore the unplugged side of the archtop world at minimum cost - check out Robin Wales' comments here and on the General subforum) and your comment (repeated above*) in the original post. As far as I'm concerned Ibanez owns the low-end hollowbody market hands down, and this lifelong Gretsch guy would happily have (and recommend) one of the Artstars over any of the 2000-Series Streamliners in the same pride range...

Thanks for the props BTW and, based on your comments about neck width as well as my own experiences with Ibanez instruments, you may in fact prefer the wider neck of the Godin (a Gibson-like 1.72" versus 1-11/16", and identical to the Seagull mini-jumbo D-profile) if you install a new nut with wider string spacing - while I personally prefer the factory specs, there's plenty of room to play with if you need the extra room...

FWIW Godin may be discontinuing the CW II in the very near future (if they haven't done so already) in favor of the more-expensive Uptown models - they've dropped the price on the factory webpage (while the other hollowbodies have either remained the same or increased in price), GC/MF no longer list them, and Sweetwater seems to be the only US dealer that has any depth of stock (also available factory-direct from Godin FYI) - so you might want to take this into account when looking toward the future. Here's a link to the 5th Avenue webpage:

https://godinguitars.com/product-cat...ics/5th-avenue

Thanks for the response, Steve. I plan to stick with this Ibanez for some time yet. Somehow, it feels comfortable and is a pleasure to play. I am sure that your recommendation to try the Godin at some point will prove to be valuable at such time as I am ready to look around again.

I just sunk some money into a new tablet - Samsung S8 Ultra since I have been using a smaller tablet daily with my guitar and chess practices. The large screen facilitates getting any example TAB and accompanying video clearly on screen at one time. I prefer a tablet because there is no mousing around or need for a keyboard for what I use it for - very straight forward and simple. I could have probably bought two or three Godins for the price, but this expenditure fits my workflow too nicely to pass up.

It can be hard to explain why a given guitar just works, while another may or may not. It can be even counter-intuitive sometimes, and there are certainly enough threads in the various sub-forums trying to get a handle on it.

For whatever reason, the Ibanez is just a very inviting guitar to play for me and I wish I could explain it in enough detail to make sense to somebody else. I have had the situation in which a certain guitar worked for me while something obviously better and more expensive did not, as well as the other way around with the more expensive instrument being the right one.

As long as the Ibanez does it for me, I will continue to play it. I have owned a few other archtops in the past, one quite expensive. The problem with it was that I was gigging at the time and was always concerned that it would get damaged, considering how small some bandstands are. I would probably not have such concerns with the Ibanez since they are cheap and plentiful, though I don't know that I will ever play out anymore.

Anyway, thanks for the info and I will be sure to keep it all in mind if/when I do decide it is time to move on. Even if this particular Godin model is discontinued, there does seem to be a healthy used market and Willie's does get some fine archtops in from time to time.

What would really be nice would be to get a birth year (1953) archtop. I had a Gibson ES-175 that I purchased new in the mid 80s and I didn't care for it at all. It was heavy and clunky and always had something rattling. I ran across a 1950s ES-175, and it was a completely different instrument, very light and responsive even if it was laminated. I should have grabbed it.

Tony

[Mandobart]

I also think its worth specifying whether we're talking about electric archtops or acoustic archtop guitars that can provide a satisfying sound unplugged.

I've tried a few Godin 5th Avenues some years ago and was not at all impressed with their acoustic tone. I did not try plugging them in at the various stores I was in.

There are a lot of "semi-acoustic" archtops out there that I'm sure many players would enjoy as long as they're plugged in.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

...What would really be nice would be to get a birth year (1953) archtop...

Not if I get there first...

BTW I'm not surprised that '50s 175 was much lighter and more acoustically responsive: back when live music was the norm at every neighborhood venue (and someone could make a decent living playing local clubs 4-5 nights a week and teaching during the day), many in-the-trenches working players would buy one of the single-pickup laminated archtops with the express intent of using it as a dual-duty acoustic and electric guitar (there was a need for acoustic archtops in a club setting well into the '60s), and saving the trouble of hauling two instruments and an amp (possibly a mic and stand as well if the player also sang, as many did). If you've never played one before, the better ES-125 and ES-150 non-cutaway models - along with the competitor Epiphone Zephyr/Zephyr Regent - could rival many a contemporary L-4/L-7 (or Epiphone Spartan/Triumph) for volume and tone; frankly, I wish I knew what I know now back in the early-60's, when the "Pawnshop Row" stores on Manhattan's 14th Street were stocked with these then-obsolescent relics of the late Big-Band and early-Bop eras, at bargain prices - could've had that 1953 ES-150 (in excellent condition - as virtually all of them were) for $50-60...

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I also think its worth specifying whether we're talking about electric archtops or acoustic archtop guitars that can provide a satisfying sound unplugged.

I've tried a few Godin 5th Avenues some years ago and was not at all impressed with their acoustic tone. I did not try plugging them in at the various stores I was in.

There are a lot of "semi-acoustic" archtops out there that I'm sure many players would enjoy as long as they're plugged in.

For me, the archtop is a "plugged in" instrument. My Ibanez has plenty of volume unplugged for practice at home, but I wouldn't consider it to have decent acoustic sound as compared to an archtop built for that purpose.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Not if I get there first...

BTW I'm not surprised that '50s 175 was much lighter and more acoustically responsive: back when live music was the norm at every neighborhood venue (and someone could make a decent living playing local clubs 4-5 nights a week and teaching during the day), many in-the-trenches working players would buy one of the single-pickup laminated archtops with the express intent of using it as a dual-duty acoustic and electric guitar (there was a need for acoustic archtops in a club setting well into the '60s), and saving the trouble of hauling two instruments and an amp (possibly a mic and stand as well if the player also sang, as many did). If you've never played one before, the better ES-125 and ES-150 non-cutaway models - along with the competitor Epiphone Zephyr/Zephyr Regent - could rival many a contemporary L-4/L-7 (or Epiphone Spartan/Triumph) for volume and tone; frankly, I wish I knew what I know now back in the early-60's, when the "Pawnshop Row" stores on Manhattan's 14th Street were stocked with these then-obsolescent relics of the late Big-Band and early-Bop eras, at bargain prices - could've had that 1953 ES-150 (in excellent condition - as virtually all of them were) for $50-60...

When I was working full time in a trio, I had an old Fender Concert amp with 4x10 and a Gretsch Tennessean archtop. I got both back then from a guy in 1976 for about $200. Since I was in a trio, the musical setting was always the same. We played MOR in supper clubs, resorts, and the Holiday Inn circuit. It was all union shop (AF of M) stuff and we were a week (6 days at each gig). For effects, I built my own as well as doing any maintenance on the PA and any other electronic stuff we had. So I really didn't need any more variety than what my guitar and amp provided.

I didn't know anything about music equipment at the time, so it was pure dumb luck that I ran into the guy with that guitar and amp. Also, in that situation I didn't have to be a top-flight guitar player. I am self-taught, but I had the good sense to teach myself how to read, learn my way around the fretboard and such. I could read charts and come up with something that fit the situation, and that was good enough. Most of the other musicians I met on the road didn't seem to be gear heads, instead being much more interested in swapping licks and that sort of thing. As Robert Conti talks about a lot, it was really all about the playing. I didn't get into the gear head thing until I came to these forums.

Tony

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I also think its worth specifying whether we're talking about electric archtops or acoustic archtop guitars that can provide a satisfying sound unplugged.

I've tried a few Godin 5th Avenues some years ago and was not at all impressed with their acoustic tone. I did not try plugging them in at the various stores I was in.

There are a lot of "semi-acoustic" archtops out there that I'm sure many players would enjoy as long as they're plugged in.

My interest is definitely in acoustic archtops without pickups.

I can understand your comments about the Godin 5th Avenue guitars you tried. I recently bought a second hand acoustic 5th Avenue on a 14 day sale or return. My first impression was that it was a little thin tonally and with had too much top. On the advice ir Steve DeRosa I tried a rosewood bridge (rather than the original Tusq one) and replaced the 12-53 strings with a 13-56 pure nickel round wound set. Acoustically, those changes really brought the guitar to life. It has a rich rounded tone with plenty of natural punch and volume that balances with my singing.

I have played it at the local open mic, just using a stage mic' for the guitar, and it filled the room. And I was sitting out in my garden yesterday playing the guitar and singing a few songs, and got a round of applause from my neighbours a good 80 yards away behind a small cops of trees when I finished, so the timbre obviously carries!

I'm no great player or singer, I just use the guitar for Carter style cowboy chord song accompaniment with a flat pick, and some Travis picking with a thumb pick and metal fingerpicks, and I capo up and down the neck for different keys. However, for that specific playing style I'm finding this cheap plywood acoustic archtop an absolute pleasure to work with. I'm getting the sparse "old school" timbre I have been looking for and found it in a very pragmatic instrument for purely acoustic (not plugged in) pub sessions, open mic's, local concerts, parties, campfire sessions etc.

However, in relation to this thread, there is going to be a big difference between a cheap archtop for plugged in playing and a cheap archtop for acoustic work. Two completely different beasts altogether!

[Sage Runner]

Full on Hollow or semi hollow Arch top Guitars with fully Mounted pick-ups and Volume/Tone Pots mounted have typically always been Laminated Guitars. Gibson, Epiphone, Gretch, Guild, Rickenbacker, Vox etc. High end Gibson and Epiphone Solid Carved Top Jazzers when electrified would typically have 1 floating pick up. A DArmond or a McCarthy pick-guard mounted set up. There are a few exceptions like some really high end L-5 CES, Byrdland etc. All The Godin ,Ibanez and such are just newer versions of the typical Laminated 1950s and 60s Gibson ES 120,125s,140, 175,250, ES-300 series. Or they are copies of the Semi Hollow arch top 335,45,55. Laminated Electric Arch tops are superior for playing plugged in. They have more sustain, little less feedback but are seldom recognized as Acoustic capable instrument. True solid carved Acoustic Arch tops with quality Floaters are a different Animal all together, and are also capable Acoustic instruments. It Really comes down to what you enjoy playing. Are you a primarily Acoustic player? I play 95% Acoustic. Seldom plug in. But my choice for Electrics are a Fender Tele for Solid Body and a 1956 ES 175. You can play any music style on any type of guitar and make it work, especially if your Tommy Emmanuel. The Great Joe Pass no doubt started on fully carved Jazzers but eventually took up the ES-175 as his main guitar. He was playing plugged into small amps continuous and the 175 was perfect. It still possessed some warmth and acoustic tonal character. BB King, Larry Carlton, Alvin Lee and others went for the Semi hollow for Blues/Rock. Those Godin, Ibanez and others are fully capable great affordable guitars! Unfortunately as mentioned earlier. Those once cheap old ES-125s with P-90 pick ups are not so cheap anymore.