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  #31  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:04 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
WEll, had written a big long reply...and it got lost in the computer..ha ha..
but anyway..Great question my friend..No matter how much you think you have prefaced a question..there are always other factors that make a difference.

Let me first restate...that I am not a great player..but I get great tone.
I like to call myself a Rhythmistist..ha ha that is my new thing..Rhythm ...notes and Rhythm and lush chords.
1. I have a small background with classical..but moved on to melodic rock quickly when I was but a teenager in the 60's. While Townsend does not really use fingers much and makes a single pick work for him..My style has much of his influence...an example would be "Behind blue eyes.." but I would typicall mix in more Rhythm in between notes..
2. I play with a different kind of thumpick that has a flat pick attached to it..so I use my three fingers and my thumb...goes back and forth between pick and fingers. My thumpick...has a flatpick attached..so it is much more flexable than standard.
3 & 4 While I do jam with a few friends...
My concern is only my guitar and my vocal.(and my add some simple symphony or single note guitar later)
+++I do realize, from my friend who is a pro mixer for many artist..that after recording..lots of stereo guitar recordings must be mixed down to a more singular effect..in order to be heard in the mix. But for me...I wish only to bring out the lavish sounds of my guitar...and the extreme dynamic range in which I play.
I should mention..that some players have to use an small amp in order to be heard over my harder playing.
**As I stated...I am not a great technical player...but sometimes my sound can be very nice. Sometimes the beauty is in two note open strummed chords..and the way I bring my pick and or fingers across it.
I just heard a recording with two stereo Octiva 012...and I was very surprised it sounded very open. I did not think this was possible for that amount of money. I had heard an SERN17...which seems like a great sounding..open mic..but that is in a $1000 range..and I have seen no used ones..
And then there is the debate of Large verses small...the large sounds great in stereo as one of the members showed me with two AT4050. What I like about them is the large capsules capture the body sound...what I dislike is the dynamic capturing ability is less...so I was even thinking about one each?
Anyway..to much talk...I am dying to hear your recommendations!
In my experience as a solo fingerstyle player and recording jock, there is a difference between (i) listening as a player from above and behind (and feeling the guitar vibrate against my body) and (ii) listening from out in front as part of an audience, even if it is an audience of one.

Mics listen from out front (usually) and are more like the second situation described above.

Thanks for the answers to my questions. Given your enthusiasm, I would suggest first that you make sure you have a high quality monitoring chain, in terms of nearfield monitors, headphones and room treatment. That way, your enthusiasm can be maintained when you listen to recordings.

As to mics, I question whether you actually need two mics to record with, given that you will be recording vocals too, and perhaps some others. Still, any studio topology you create should be designed to handle all those possibilities, and most likely, recording just your acoustic guitar (recording vocals later as a separate take) is a viable option.

In the $1,000+- budget range for a pair of SD mics for recording hybrid picking guitar, I would suggest (in no particular order):

Used pair Neumann KM184 (excellent all around mics).
New pair Beyer-Dynamic MC930 (a bit scooped which should correlate with what you want to hear).
Used pair Microtach Gefell M300 (hard to find at this price, but stellar mics)
New pair 3 Zigma CHI transformer mic amps with SD cardioid or hypercardioid caps (very pleasing sonics and behavior and modular)
Oktava MC-012 (Joly mod) with SD cardioid or hypercardioid caps (similar to the 3 Zigma and modular).
Used Mojave MA-100SP pair (one of the better SD tube mics currently available)

Good luck on your search. And keep that enthusiasm going. It's addictive.
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:04 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Hi Knives,

I listened to the recording you posted of the Octavas. I own a couple myself so am familiar with them and think that for what they sell for, they're pretty good sounding mics.

My experience is that mics are not as significant as you seem to believe. Of much greater significance is the player, the guitar, the pick or condition of the fingerpicks or nails, the strings, mic placement. the space it's recorded in and so on. And then there's reverb that was added to the recording.

Get mics you can afford, that have been well reviewed by others and then, like Doug said, spend, "many many many hours experimenting".

There really isn't some magical, "open" mic.
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:06 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
Well it would be remiss not to mention that in the Octiva video all mic placements are nearly a foot away. Very, very difficult to get an untreated room to work effectively with a mic position of nearly a foot. Part of the magic of this video is indeed the mic placement and the room that supports the mic placement. Even in my living room which is the most damped in the house, a foot away and the room comes flooding in. I can of course RX it but there's always a trade-off there. You're judging a mic based off of a pretty great room. Somewhat (if not more-so) misleading for most of us living in the real world.
I am very interested in your discussion about room and one foot mic placement. Thank you for sharing. I am going to call my engineer friend and discuss with him later tonight...but I would like to get your take on this subject.
What is causes the problem with close micing in regards to an untreated room? Is it the fact that the walls reflections will then cause Phasing? throwing back sound delayed? Or is it something else?
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
I am very interested in your discussion about room and one foot mic placement. Thank you for sharing. I am going to call my engineer friend and discuss with him later tonight...but I would like to get your take on this subject.
What is causes the problem with close micing in regards to an untreated room? Is it the fact that the walls reflections will then cause Phasing? throwing back sound delayed? Or is it something else?
Your are getting a lot of responses on this thread, however I would suggest you spend a fair amount of time looking at prior threads as all this stuff has been discussed at length and in detail many times before.
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:17 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Great point Doug , I think we are really talking how they transpose in real life working situations...while recording dynamic volumes =as you stated can not be achieved to that level..it may transpose to a sort of transient response in real life...I am probably not explaining this in the meaning I wish to...
Simply trying to state that often things convert to another technical result.
Most mics are more than adequate to handle the dynamic range of, the transients caused by and the overtones created from an acoustic guitar. The acoustic guitar's dynamic range is narrower than many of other instruments. It's transients are slower than other attacks (e.g., snare drum). It's harmonics are secondary and well expected and within the frequency range of such mics. Yes, some mics are better at those things than others, but such mics are beyond you stated budget.
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:18 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
Hi Knives,

I listened to the recording you posted of the Octavas. I own a couple myself so am familiar with them and think that for what they sell for, they're pretty good sounding mics.

My experience is that mics are not as significant as you seem to believe. Of much greater significance is the player, the guitar, the pick or condition of the fingerpicks or nails, the strings, mic placement. the space it's recorded in and so on. And then there's reverb that was added to the recording.

Get mics you can afford, that have been well reviewed by others and then, like Doug said, spend, "many many many hours experimenting".

There really isn't some magical, "open" mic.
Well, you are trying to destroy this child's belief in magic! ha ha..I love magic...and I love a good fairy tale with a happy ending.
I have been in several professions & accuracy sports, involving products and extreme experimentation. And in all cases...everything makes a difference..You are absolutely right..Believe me...I agree with you ten thousand percent on that issue. You would not believe the extreme I have gone to=to get my guitar to sound the way it does. Everything makes a difference.
But I do have some recording background..it was from the 80's...but I did have some knowledge back then. I owned Neumanns(U87) and was involved in some recording studios.. I did produce a little bit(but not in a big way..but I do have some experience)..and you could never get me to believe that Microphone isn't very, very important.
And yes..you can get a very good sounding recording with very inexpensive mics..Heck..I gotten a reasonable sound from an old boom box with a built in mic.. And with today's inboard reverbs, eqs, limiters...the world is at your fingertips...
But I am not asking for a very good recording. I am asking for something more than that..the best I can get with the price range I have.
If everything makes a difference..then it would be pretty hard for me to believe that Mics don't make as much difference.
the old, old saying which I am sure you have heard a hundred times before...Your fence is only as good as its weakest link. So sure...picks, room sound, preamps, player, guitar all of those are part of the fence...I just don't want the microphone to be the weak link.
So, I will kept chasing fairy tales and believing in Magic. When fingers cross the strings...that is magic.
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:40 PM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Well Bob...having 200 mics to your access and being an old Grizzled engineer(lots of wisdom I assume)
Please give me your two cents...as I can not test 200 mics ...ha ha..
Jury is out on the wisdom.

Answer: Hmmm... Well, it depends.

I've had lots of luck recording acoustic guitar to play in a combo with AKG C451 mics. We've got several 451Es, the old types, that are very nice. The presence peak offered by these helps the guitar to "cut through." Since they are no longer made and are really meant for the studio and not the road we picked up a pair of AKGC451Bs, the new version. Lots of folks say these are "strident" but I did a blind A/B with an E and a B and while most of my colleagues could tell they were different they didn't know which was which. They thought both were nice and smooth but the E sounded "vintage" and the B more "modern." Interesting. Both are lovely on high hat and give snare top a great snap.

We also have the C461s without the presence boost. I don't typically reach for them but if I'm confronted with a crashy guitar, out they come. Same with the Shure SM81 - it has a less pronounced high end and does well to tame a raucous guitar.

These are darned expensive, but you asked for my opinion: If you want a full-bodied sound for solo I've had very good results with the Neumann TLM170s. We've got the early red badge ones and the early purple badge ones. I prefer the early red badged ones. They've got a smooth midrange and unhyped high end. You've got to know how to use them and I usually find myself adding a touch of "air" to the high end. With that done, they are just transparent, smooth as silk, and pretty. The Neumann U-47 has a wonderful low end and that characteristic upper-mid presence push that makes for an interesting, "super-real" sound. We've got a 1971 AKG C414 comb, basically a solid-state C12 (C12A) with four-pattern selector. I call this one "literal." It is just about as close to standing in front of the instrument as you can get. The reissue of the tube C12 called "The Tube" is similar but has a funny, "papery" high end I'm not sold on.

One of my favorite experimental arrays is an ORTF array of of AKG C451s with a TLM-170 centered and pointed at the neck joint. The 170 provides the girth and the 451s make for the sparkly ear candy and spread across the soundstage. My go-to array for acoustic guitar in a combo is a pair of AKG C451Bs, seven inches apart at 110' in a sort of inverse ORTF but turned vertically to eliminate the left-right frequency disparity when a pair array is used on a guitar:


That came to me in the middle of the night before a big session with the thought, "Hey, the mic doesn't know whether it is horizontal or vertical." But it turns out that George Massenberg started using a vertical array around the time he recorded the Trio album in 1987. I read about it back then and forgot and apparently remembered it just in time for a hot session. Cool! It stuck.

The Royer R-121 is great ribbon is you want one. It is internally preamped to prevent the classic problem with low output and comes in versions for live or studio.

On the less expensive front, for full and smooth, I've had really good results with the Mohave MA201fet LDC designed by Dave Royer. One of ours survived a rainstorm of all things when we weren't able to bag all sixty-six mics on a large outdoor TV musical production. I walked around tapping it out into the palm of my hand for a half-hour until no more water came out and then connected it up. Voile'!

Preamps are really important as the impedance loading on a mic is important. I run Neve, Avalon, and Yamaha preamps mostly. Interestingly I've gotten really pretty results with some odd combinations.

All mics are going to have capsule resonances of one kind or another. Judicial subtractive EQ can sweeten up a mic really quickly. Nothing burns the stew like bad EQ.

All the best.

Bob
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2015, 10:01 PM
Mtn Man Mtn Man is offline
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
That is great to hear...thank you...I have hear some clips from both..and I would lean towards the sound of the 4033..So let me ask you this..is the 4033 just a cardioid Only version of the 4050? I was going to call AT, after I heard the stereo recordings of the 4050...but it is now to late in the day.
From what I can find, the 4050 has a larger diaphragm, and the switchable polar pattern (Cardioid, Omni, Figure 8). It also has a little more frequency response in the bass register. How that equates to the sound, and if you'll be able to tell the difference, I couldn't say as I have no personal experience with it.
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  #39  
Old 08-18-2015, 08:05 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Dear KG,

You are at the edge of a thousand mile deep abyss; one foot raised. The ground and rocks are disintegrating under your other foot (provided that you are a biped).

Everything that has been said here by others is fairly sound; pun intended.

Capturing the true sound of your guitar is a fool's pursuit because no mic or mics I know of can actually do that and, as a player, you really have a very limited perspective of what your guitar actually sounds like.

Microphones and preamps are merely tools. The Neumann KM 184, for example, was popular for acoustic guitars and may still be. For me, it is overly bright and never really honestly captures the sound of anything it's used on.

Distilling your comments - and thanks, BTW, for explaining so well - it sounds to me like you want to hear not just your guitar, but your guitar in a certain space. Having the right guitar with the right gauge and age strings is very important in pursuing that goal. Then there's the space.

You mentioned others needing a practice amp when you play because of the volume of your guitar. I presume this has to do with the vigor with which you play.

Playing hard and loud excites any space into resonance. Playing too hard (overplaying the guitar) also overexcites the guitar and things get ugly. Overexciting the space, whether you're playing too hard or not, has its own consequences. Where your preferences sit on these points is a very personal position.

Given your present personal situation, I deduce that sometimes you're using the guitar playing as a cathartic release. Been there - and found that some "ugly" came out in my playing. After your situation changes, your preference for what you want to hear may also change.

Mic choices are one small part of the path to that happy place in your hearing brain. Even if you used a pair of Schoeps CMC64 cardioids (wider than 641, so more space) even if you find a proper space that pleases your hearing brain, I doubt you'll be entirely happy, because, as you play, the hearing brain hears more than microphones are capable of capturing.

If your hearing brain is acutely attuned to space, you might find that 24/96 recording, instead of 24/44.1 recording more closely approaches that sense of space. In addition, the floor, ceiling and walls all come into play as well as what you put or don't put on them.

My advice, given your present situation is to try to enjoy the journey, but don't be too concerned about the destination….and prayers for your mom.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #40  
Old 08-18-2015, 11:18 AM
Johan Madsen Johan Madsen is offline
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Hi K & G, I would recommend you the Neumann Tlm 102 with is great for its relatively cheap price, I personally also use some paired line audio CM3, great and very neutral sounding, only downside a little low output level. They are very cheap and handmade in Sweden (100 euro), maybe round 130 dollars in Us I would guess
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  #41  
Old 08-18-2015, 11:23 AM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
Dear KG,

You are at the edge of a thousand mile deep abyss; one foot raised. The ground and rocks are disintegrating under your other foot (provided that you are a biped).

Everything that has been said here by others is fairly sound; pun intended.

Capturing the true sound of your guitar is a fool's pursuit because no mic or mics I know of can actually do that and, as a player, you really have a very limited perspective of what your guitar actually sounds like.

Microphones and preamps are merely tools. The Neumann KM 184, for example, was popular for acoustic guitars and may still be. For me, it is overly bright and never really honestly captures the sound of anything it's used on.

Distilling your comments - and thanks, BTW, for explaining so well - it sounds to me like you want to hear not just your guitar, but your guitar in a certain space. Having the right guitar with the right gauge and age strings is very important in pursuing that goal. Then there's the space.

You mentioned others needing a practice amp when you play because of the volume of your guitar. I presume this has to do with the vigor with which you play.

Playing hard and loud excites any space into resonance. Playing too hard (overplaying the guitar) also overexcites the guitar and things get ugly. Overexciting the space, whether you're playing too hard or not, has its own consequences. Where your preferences sit on these points is a very personal position.

Given your present personal situation, I deduce that sometimes you're using the guitar playing as a cathartic release. Been there - and found that some "ugly" came out in my playing. After your situation changes, your preference for what you want to hear may also change.

Mic choices are one small part of the path to that happy place in your hearing brain. Even if you used a pair of Schoeps CMC64 cardioids (wider than 641, so more space) even if you find a proper space that pleases your hearing brain, I doubt you'll be entirely happy, because, as you play, the hearing brain hears more than microphones are capable of capturing.

If your hearing brain is acutely attuned to space, you might find that 24/96 recording, instead of 24/44.1 recording more closely approaches that sense of space. In addition, the floor, ceiling and walls all come into play as well as what you put or don't put on them.

My advice, given your present situation is to try to enjoy the journey, but don't be too concerned about the destination….and prayers for your mom.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Dear Ty,
+ I am most alive when I am standing on the edge…Let the ground rumble beneath my feet and test my balance! Let me stair into that thousand mile deep abyss and see a universe of possibilities!
+and Yes Microphones are tools…and I must admit…I love tools..I got a workshop full of them..
no doubt that playing vigorously can get ugly quickly…but I modified my guitar with the right strings, nuts and saddles and tone woods to accomplish the sound I needed and wanted. And by the way..the person with amp asked me to help him modify his guitar after he heard mine.
Spot on with the brain and the way it hears…so true! I only wish to hear what I hear in my brain….Don’t we All really want that!
Oh and for the Journey…Oh…that is the best part..and..the worst part. The Journey is exciting and other times it is disappointing.
“Fools pursuit” well, every court has its fool…so let it be me. I will gladly continue on my Fools pursuit.
Thank you Ty for your very well thought out reply..
****I have had the great pleasure of being a commercial photographer back in the 80’s and working for two very wonderful Electric and Bass guitar companies…I have had as many as 20 t 25 guitars in my studio at one time..What a joy to have tested-compared the woods..such fun.
****As I do not have my mics as of yet..I can not share with you my journey of sound.
So I will share with you another fools journey that I have taken…one of many.
I will always keep my eye on the ever eluding destination…
http://www.victorsmithknives.com/
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  #42  
Old 08-18-2015, 04:27 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Aloha K & G,

You've received lots of great advice & mic recommendations here from some very talented AGF people. However, with you admitting that you actually enjoy sitting on the edge of the cliff, acting impulsively, & also that you are unable or unwilling to actually audition any mic before you buy (the real wisdom here), you will probably end up spending a lot of money before you get to where you want to be in recording.

IME, you have to put the time in & gain at least some "self-preservational" gear knowledge (largely through auditioning gear) & also of the recording process/requirements at first - or you will pay MUCH more in time & money in the long-run than you really need to, my friend. It's that simple. And it flies in the face of the "off the cliff" approach, don't you think? Consider them, but don't trust others opinions as your sole source when it comes to how gear & specifically mic's sound, K-G. Trust YOUR ears.

That said, I have no mic's to recommend today (many appropriate ones have already been recommended). My only suggestion is that you modify your approach & include a bit more pragmatism & "ears-on" approach to selecting gear (especially mic's), K-G. It will serve your interests & save you money in the long-run.

All the best to you with your search & recording.

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 08-18-2015 at 07:24 PM.
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  #43  
Old 08-18-2015, 08:18 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Here's a bit of a different angle on mic choice / technique from SoundPure. I happened upon this demo of both nylon and steel strung guitar done with a spaced pair of Neumann 102 mics, totally dry but with emphasis on capturing a bit of the natural ambiance of the recording space. From what I can see in the demo the room would have a fair amount of medium reflection, but would also have a lot of attributes that very few of us would ever consciously try to incorporate.

Most folks would probably put the 102 pretty squarely in the middle of the cost vs. sound quality formula, so I'm interested in what some of you more knowledgeable might think of the demonstration and resultant sound. It certainly seems like something that is in agreement with what the OP is trying to accomplish.

https://youtu.be/i41-xZHzqug
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  #44  
Old 08-18-2015, 08:28 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Here's a bit of a different angle on mic choice / technique from SoundPure. I happened upon this demo of both nylon and steel strung guitar done with a spaced pair of Neumann 102 mics, totally dry but with emphasis on capturing a bit of the natural ambiance of the recording space. From what I can see in the demo the room would have a fair amount of medium reflection, but would also have a lot of attributes that very few of us would ever consciously try to incorporate.

Most folks would probably put the 102 pretty squarely in the middle of the cost vs. sound quality formula, so I'm interested in what some of you more knowledgeable might think of the demonstration and resultant sound. It certainly seems like something that is in agreement with what the OP is trying to accomplish.

https://youtu.be/i41-xZHzqug
Very Cool! Thank you...very natural sounding.
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  #45  
Old 08-18-2015, 08:32 PM
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Sounds very nice to me! I think it works better on the nylon than the steel string, you expect a classical to have a lot of room sound.
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