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  #16  
Old 08-17-2015, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
While the argument can be made...as you did..that great recording can be made with the cheapest of mics..(my professional engineer friend says he has two thousand dollar mics for guitars..but he can use Sm57's and get a great sound)
To be clear, I didn't really mean to make that argument here. I do think you can make pretty good recordings with "lesser" mics, but I was assuming in my response that you'd pick something in your budget range. $1000 worth of mics (2x$500) is plenty for a home recording setup, and even for many pro studios. The 4033's are nice, I know of Grammy-nominated recordings made with those. As others have said, a pair of small condenser's is typical. You might find a pair of KM184s for $1000 used, as well as many other common mics. Also check with sdelsolrey about the Gefell's he had for sale recently. People have already listed a number of mics here, any of them that fall into that price range will be fine.

At the risk of repeating myself and others, the key to capturing those beautiful sounds is mic placement, room acoustics, mixing, and many, many, many hours of experimentation. Time spent pouring over mic specs, etc, or even trying different mics, is educational, but unless you choose some totally inappropriate mic, it won't be the mic that makes the difference in your recordings, it will be what you learn to do with it, which usually takes time, unfortunately.
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2015, 05:30 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor B. View Post
Big topic!!! Other than passing along what I'm using I'd suggest listening to some of the clips folks here on the forum are posting. I have a matched pair of Gefell M300s but still have a ways to go on the "recording learning curve". I'll find the thread with those mikes recording a member here who's far ahead of me on the above mentioned learning curve and post it shortly. In the meantime check out this terrific youtube video featuring terrific arrangements, great playing and a wonderful tone from a pair of AT 4050s.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=397123
Thank you, Thank You so much...your two replies is very helpful and exactly what I have been asking for! You have lead me in a new direction...and help me see another possibility. Beautiful recordings using the AT4050's..and I had heard some other recording with AT that were nice...So AT's were under consideration..but I had not heard them the way I wanted to..so this opens up the picture.
You have the picture!...Spaced pair..Open sounding...Which is one of the other elements in the Mix(to coin a phrase) The large diaphram verses the small..What I like about the large diaphram..is its ability to capture more of the body sound...giving it a slightly smoother tone. What I dislike about the bigger capsule is you loose a little bit of dynamic range(which I always thought was transients=and now I am coming to learn that it actually might be dynamic range) So maybe the two combined!!!
I could not open up the Gefell M300 recordings..but would love to hear them...They would be out of my price range at $1000 each..but..maybe I could find a used pair? So I will try and get that to open up for me.
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  #18  
Old 08-17-2015, 05:35 PM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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Mics are like wine: everyone has a favorite flavor and many will argue vehemently that theirs is the best. If you ask a grizzled old recording engineer what is the best mic for a particular application, he'll likely scratch his chin, think for a couple of seconds, and answer, "Mmmm... it depends."

I've got access to a mic locker of over 200 excellent mics here where I work and after years I still fiddle with different choices. Now, mind you, when the rubber hits the road and we are in a serious session, I'm quickly down to just a few favorites.

Bob
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  #19  
Old 08-17-2015, 05:59 PM
Trevor B. Trevor B. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
Mics are like wine: everyone has a favorite flavor and many will argue vehemently that theirs is the best. If you ask a grizzled old recording engineer what is the best mic for a particular application, he'll likely scratch his chin, think for a couple of seconds, and answer, "Mmmm... it depends."

I've got access to a mic locker of over 200 excellent mics here where I work and after years I still fiddle with different choices. Now, mind you, when the rubber hits the road and we are in a serious session, I'm quickly down to just a few favorites.

Bob
Hey Bob, I'd love to hear what those favourites are? I know, I know……..acoustic room treatment, mic placement, mixing, performance, good source, but I'd still love to hear what "your" favourite mikes are.
Thanks,
Trevor
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  #20  
Old 08-17-2015, 06:05 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
Mics are like wine: everyone has a favorite flavor and many will argue vehemently that theirs is the best. If you ask a grizzled old recording engineer what is the best mic for a particular application, he'll likely scratch his chin, think for a couple of seconds, and answer, "Mmmm... it depends."

I've got access to a mic locker of over 200 excellent mics here where I work and after years I still fiddle with different choices. Now, mind you, when the rubber hits the road and we are in a serious session, I'm quickly down to just a few favorites.

Bob
Well Bob...having 200 mics to your access and being an old Grizzled engineer(lots of wisdom I assume)
Please give me your two cents...as I can not test 200 mics ...ha ha..
Here is a recording made with octiva 012...which I had not hear till just a moment ago...And knowing the sound of many taylors..I would have to say that these mics do in fact give a good representation and Open sound, in the space pair setup..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRHluGf3S34
Given the parameters of my initial post...the mics under consideration would be.
Audix Sc25A ( and that is only because I can get a deal on it)
Octiva 012
Sennheiser E914 ( I have not heard a stereo set up yet)
AT4050 or 4033cl
Used Gefell300( if I could find them a reasonable price)
Or anything else I should take a look at.

The Mics under c
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  #21  
Old 08-17-2015, 06:13 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Knives,

You said the following in your OP

Quote:
"I have a slightly wilder playing style...going from heavy Clear Rhythms to single notes."
A few questions, the answers to which may help narrow down mic choice possibilities:

1) Does that mean you strum chords and play single note leads?

2) With a flatpick?

3) Do you play in an ensemble? If so, what are the other instruments?

4) If you play in an ensemble, how do you want your guitar to be represented in any mix of all instruments (including any vocals)?
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  #22  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:01 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Knives,

You said the following in your OP



A few questions, the answers to which may help narrow down mic choice possibilities:

1) Does that mean you strum chords and play single note leads?

2) With a flatpick?

3) Do you play in an ensemble? If so, what are the other instruments?

4) If you play in an ensemble, how do you want your guitar to be represented in any mix of all instruments (including any vocals)?
WEll, had written a big long reply...and it got lost in the computer..ha ha..
but anyway..Great question my friend..No matter how much you think you have prefaced a question..there are always other factors that make a difference.

Let me first restate...that I am not a great player..but I get great tone.
I like to call myself a Rhythmistist..ha ha that is my new thing..Rhythm ...notes and Rhythm and lush chords.
1. I have a small background with classical..but moved on to melodic rock quickly when I was but a teenager in the 60's. While Townsend does not really use fingers much and makes a single pick work for him..My style has much of his influence...an example would be "Behind blue eyes.." but I would typicall mix in more Rhythm in between notes..
2. I play with a different kind of thumpick that has a flat pick attached to it..so I use my three fingers and my thumb...goes back and forth between pick and fingers. My thumpick...has a flatpick attached..so it is much more flexable than standard.
3 & 4 While I do jam with a few friends...
My concern is only my guitar and my vocal.(and my add some simple symphony or single note guitar later)
+++I do realize, from my friend who is a pro mixer for many artist..that after recording..lots of stereo guitar recordings must be mixed down to a more singular effect..in order to be heard in the mix. But for me...I wish only to bring out the lavish sounds of my guitar...and the extreme dynamic range in which I play.
I should mention..that some players have to use an small amp in order to be heard over my harder playing.
**As I stated...I am not a great technical player...but sometimes my sound can be very nice. Sometimes the beauty is in two note open strummed chords..and the way I bring my pick and or fingers across it.
I just heard a recording with two stereo Octiva 012...and I was very surprised it sounded very open. I did not think this was possible for that amount of money. I had heard an SERN17...which seems like a great sounding..open mic..but that is in a $1000 range..and I have seen no used ones..
And then there is the debate of Large verses small...the large sounds great in stereo as one of the members showed me with two AT4050. What I like about them is the large capsules capture the body sound...what I dislike is the dynamic capturing ability is less...so I was even thinking about one each?
Anyway..to much talk...I am dying to hear your recommendations!
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  #23  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:02 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
Well Bob...having 200 mics to your access and being an old Grizzled engineer(lots of wisdom I assume)
Please give me your two cents...as I can not test 200 mics ...ha ha..
Here is a recording made with octiva 012...which I had not hear till just a moment ago...And knowing the sound of many taylors..I would have to say that these mics do in fact give a good representation and Open sound, in the space pair setup..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRHluGf3S34
Given the parameters of my initial post...the mics under consideration would be.
Audix Sc25A ( and that is only because I can get a deal on it)
Octiva 012
Sennheiser E914 ( I have not heard a stereo set up yet)
AT4050 or 4033cl
Used Gefell300( if I could find them a reasonable price)
Or anything else I should take a look at.

The Mics under c

Well it would be remiss not to mention that in the Octiva video all mic placements are nearly a foot away. Very, very difficult to get an untreated room to work effectively with a mic position of nearly a foot. Part of the magic of this video is indeed the mic placement and the room that supports the mic placement. Even in my living room which is the most damped in the house, a foot away and the room comes flooding in. I can of course RX it but there's always a trade-off there. You're judging a mic based off of a pretty great room. Somewhat (if not more-so) misleading for most of us living in the real world.
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  #24  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:09 PM
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Why do you think LD mics have more limited dynamic range?
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  #25  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:19 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Why do you think LD mics have more limited dynamic range?
This is a brand new concept for me..one that I learned just last night..from an article.
And I am not saying it is correct and true..what I am saying is that I may have been thinking of things in different terms before.
In the past..I always thought that small capsule mics had quicker transcient response times. As that is how I was always taught..and that is how it sounds...
And that make some logical sense...thinking that it is much easier to move a small capsule over a larger diaphram...
According to this article
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/Websit...Diaphragm.aspx
At the very bottom you will see a chart that says the large diaphram has lower dynamic range..IF I am reading this correctly...ha ha..you will probably set me straight..ha ha..
So maybe...just maybe all these years what I thought I was hearing as faster transients..might actually be a greater dynamic range.
So I openly admit...that I may have this wrong...lots of speculation here...I am learning my friend...but that is what the chart leads me to believe.
Merely trading dynamic for transients..While it does not say this..this is what I am assuming is happening.
Words are so hard..and I often speak one word meaning something else.
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  #26  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars View Post
According to this article
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/Websit...Diaphragm.aspx
At the very bottom you will see a chart that says the large diaphram has lower dynamic range...
Well, tho DPA is a reputable source, this chart seems way too generic to me to be meaningful. But even if it applies to the specific mics you are considering, I serious doubt you can get 119db dynamic range out of a guitar, or capture that reasonably on a recording. A CD, at 16 bits can only capture 96 db, for example. Yes, if you record at 24 bits, you can theoretically store more dynamic range (144db, I believe), but your gear and noise floor probably won't support that. In a home studio, if you can get a -70db noise floor, you'll be doing great. For acoustic guitar, dynamic range just doesn't seem to be a consideration to me. Maybe if you were recording an orchestra, or even drums.
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  #27  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:35 PM
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I would not question anything the dpa experts say about microphones, however the comments are generalizations and mikes within a given size category can vary quite a bit enough to create overlaps among size categories.

Regarding dynamic range, it's about the last thing I would worry about when recording an acoustic guitar.
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:36 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Well, tho DPA is a reputable source, this chart seems way too generic to me to be meaningful. But even if it applies to the specific mics you are considering, I serious doubt you can get 119db dynamic range out of a guitar, or capture that reasonably on a recording. A CD, at 16 bits can only capture 96 db, for example. Yes, if you record at 24 bits, you can theoretically store more dynamic range (144db, I believe), but your gear and noise floor probably won't support that. In a home studio, if you can get a -70db noise floor, you'll be doing great. For acoustic guitar, dynamic range just doesn't seem to be a consideration to me. Maybe if you were recording an orchestra, or even drums.
Great point Doug , I think we are really talking how they transpose in real life working situations...while recording dynamic volumes =as you stated can not be achieved to that level..it may transpose to a sort of transient response in real life...I am probably not explaining this in the meaning I wish to...
Simply trying to state that often things convert to another technical result.
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  #29  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:38 PM
Mtn Man Mtn Man is offline
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We've had good luck with both the Audio Technica 4033 and the AKG C214. These are both large diaphragm condensers that run about $300 new. They're workhorse mics that excel both onstage and in the studio. For a small diaphragm condenser we've had good luck with AT Pro37's which are $130 from Musicians Friend. If you're on a budget, these are very good choices for acoustic guitars and other stringed instruments. The 4033 and C214 also work extremely well for vocals.
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  #30  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:01 PM
Knives&Guitars Knives&Guitars is offline
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We've had good luck with both the Audio Technica 4033 and the AKG C214. These are both large diaphragm condensers that run about $300 new. They're workhorse mics that excel both onstage and in the studio. For a small diaphragm condenser we've had good luck with AT Pro37's which are $130 from Musicians Friend. If you're on a budget, these are very good choices for acoustic guitars and other stringed instruments. The 4033 and C214 also work extremely well for vocals.
That is great to hear...thank you...I have hear some clips from both..and I would lean towards the sound of the 4033..So let me ask you this..is the 4033 just a cardioid Only version of the 4050? I was going to call AT, after I heard the stereo recordings of the 4050...but it is now to late in the day.
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