Is Hide Glue usually worth the upcharge?

Originally Posted by vintageom

. . . . I have a Martin, a Santa Cruz and a Gibson built using hide glue. Each were trade ups from their non-hide glue brothers with same specs. The hide glue versions sound better. If they had not sounded better, I would have stayed with the standard Titebond versions . . .

I'm not certain about Martin and Santa Cruz, but Gibson doesn't have "Titebond" versions to upgrade from . . . unless you're referring to Epiphone? There never has been a two Gibson models where the only difference is glue. I think that's probably true with Martin. Could you be more specific about the upgraded models?

[vintageom]

When comparing senses like sight and sound and feel and smell and touch, no one has the ability to accurately judge what others sense. It is individual perception.

Everyone has perceptions and they make choices based on them.

Buy and play what you like.

[M Hayden]

I can't hear a difference, but i like the idea that the it's repair-friendly in the sense that hide glue can be used over long periods of time as with violins....I like to hope that the guitars we love will be reparable a long time from now.

Of course, this opens up the "How long is a guitar supposed to last?" question....

[nedray]

This is a decision I wouldn't make in isolation and wouldn't let it be the determining factor. Three of my five favorite guitars are made entirely or partially with hide/animal protein glue, but that wasn't what made me want them. The other two are assembled with regular wood glues. Of my current less favored guitars, one is made with hide glue and the others are not. All have other variables in the bracing type and size, top and back woods, tuners, neck attachment, pickups or not, and so on. To me, if you're going to play the guitar with an onboard pickup, you're overriding all these build options with the electronics, so $1,000 for glue is an expensive academic exercise.

[ukejon]

Unicorn glue infused with magic pixie dust is my favorite guitar adhesive.

[imc2111]

OP here, wow, I didn't realize this would be such a heated topic.

After reading some of the responses and doing some research, I've decided that it's not worth it for me.

[Rockysdad]

Originally Posted by ukejon

Unicorn glue infused with magic pixie dust is my favorite guitar adhesive.

You're a very "lucky" person, can't get that here

[Tico]

Disclaimer: I recently bought a Martin Authentic, made with hide glue, so I likely have confirmation bias.

Some people say they'd only pay the upcharge if hide glue is guaranteed to sound better.
That's fine.
People vary.

I don't need that guarantee.
I'm happy to pay the money on the chance it may sound better, just as I was when I bought a guitar with Madagascar vs. Indian RW, a torrified top and a Tonerite.

Maybe I'm gullible and got ripped off.
I don't care.
You do your homework and you make your call.

Is a guitar a complex package of many sound-affecting factors?
Sure.
But that is not an argument against choosing one feature that may improve the sound.

In summary, hide glue is worth it to some but not worth it to others.

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

But how can you really hear the difference between a guitar made with hide glue and one made without? Can anyone, or has anyone ever compared two identical - in every detail besides the glue - guitars in the past? How could they? One would have to use the exact same wood cut from the same tree and all built within the same time period if you wanted to honestly compare the two guitars.

That sort of argument is used for all sorts of things - insisting that there is no difference between Sitka and red spruce, or even no difference between rosewood and mahogany, as examples.

It doesn't hold water in those instances and it doesn't here. Like those things, no two guitars will tell the whole story. You have to sample many guitars with those differences and listen for trends. If there are characteristic differences you will hear those after sampling enough guitars.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

But how can you really hear the difference between a guitar made with hide glue and one made without? Can anyone, or has anyone ever compared two identical - in every detail besides the glue - guitars in the past? How could they? One would have to use the exact same wood cut from the same tree and all built within the same time period if you wanted to honestly compare the two guitars. Or would it matter what the luthier ate for lunch that day?

As others have said, if you think there's a difference then it's worth the upcharge.

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

That sort of argument is used for all sorts of things - insisting that there is no difference between Sitka and red spruce, or even no difference between rosewood and mahogany, as examples.

It doesn't hold water in those instances and it doesn't here. Like those things, no two guitars will tell the whole story. You have to sample many guitars with those differences and listen for trends. If there are characteristic differences you will hear those after sampling enough guitars.

But that sort of argument is the closest criteria we can use for scientifically comparing and then drawing conclusions on just about anything. While it has worked for products that can be replicated exactly, I doubt if guitars can be judged the same way.

[terken]

As a builder I always use hide for acoustically active joints. Bridge, plate joining, braces, bridge plate.

Not so much because I am sure it makes a big difference in the sound but because it tacks up quickly so stuff like braces and bridge plates don't skate around with clamping and clean up is easy.

I close the box with Tightbond Extend which dries hard like the old LMI white. (H Klepper pointed this out on the now defunct professional luthiers forum a while back - thanks Howard, it's true.)

Repairability is a huge reason as well as mentioned in other posts.

I am convinced that filling fret slots with hide which dries like glass does have a positive effect on tone.

I don't upcharge, it's standard an so why not? It is not that hard to use after you get the hang of it and it's fun.

Lastly, the demographic that buys high end guitars usually have high frequency hearing loss anyway. If you really want to find out if it makes a difference ask a six year old.

[Rip VanWinkle]

Last fall I made the trip from California to Nazareth to meet my CS 0000-28H and tour the factory. Great trip, highly recommended. I asked Ted if he could arrange a little time for me with the Custom Shop guys which he did. My plan was to pick their brain about my "last" guitar ( LOL!), a custom shop D-35. Scott Sasser, Jimmie, Mike and Leslie spent about an hour with me talking woods and build features. When pressed, Scott admitted that he preferred Guatemalan Rosewood for b/sides. I then asked him about hide glue, he said "Absolutely!" He then offered a great idea for binding. Doing the math in my head, I asked him quickly, " Guatemalan Rosewood or Hide glue?" Without dropping a beat, he said "Hide glue!" We finished up the design...and Mike pointed out that he managed the three people in the Custom Shop that work with hide glue and his people would be making my guitar. Ted has always told m that he has had the chance to play relative similar models made with hide glue and Titebond and you can hear the difference. The punchline here.....I'll let you know in a couple of more months.

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

But that sort of argument is the closest criteria we can use for scientifically judging anything. While it has worked for products that can be replicated exactly, I doubt if guitars can be judged the same way.

That is not how science works. No good study hangs on the basis of two samples, which is what your prior posts suggests is necessary for a valid conclusion. Either or both of the samples could be outliers and not representative of the whole. Repeatability and trends are far more telling than any two samples.

Whether your argument is for or against hide glue, basing your conclusion on two samples is no better than a coin toss.

[Wade Hampton]

Whether hide glue makes guitars sound "better" is a belief that, quite frankly, I'm agnostic about. Maybe yes, maybe no....

I have had a chance to play at least two or three dozen guitars assembled entirely with hide glue, mostly at stores with in-depth inventory of high quality guitars, like Mass Street Music, Gryphon Stringed Instruments and Elderly Instruments, as well as at a number of special events like the Fretboard Summit in California. On those occasions there were also similar non-hide glue guitars right there to try alongside.

There was nothing about the hide glue guitars that audibly leapt out at me and convinced me of the musical superiority of this particular adhesive. Now, all of these were relatively new instruments, and maybe it takes decades of aging for the true benefits of hide glue construction to become fully apparent.

But I've played many genuine pre-war instruments that were dogs from a musical standpoint, and presumably the hide glue they were built with should have had some positive impact. But if so, it was indiscernible.

Nedray articulated a lot of my own feelings about the subject here:

Originally Posted by nedray

This is a decision I wouldn't make in isolation and wouldn't let it be the determining factor. Three of my five favorite guitars are made entirely or partially with hide/animal protein glue, but that wasn't what made me want them. The other two are assembled with regular wood glues. Of my current less favored guitars, one is made with hide glue and the others are not. All have other variables in the bracing type and size, top and back woods, tuners, neck attachment, pickups or not, and so on. To me, if you're going to play the guitar with an onboard pickup, you're overriding all these build options with the electronics, so $1,000 for glue is an expensive academic exercise.

As it happens, I do have some old instruments made long before Titebond and Elmer's Wood Glue became available, and I'll just say this: if the type of glue used is a factor in the ultimate sound of an instrument, it's an EXCEEDINGLY minor factor.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[tadol]

I think the choice of glue should be left to the luthier, and if you don't trust the luthiers choice, you shouldn't be ordering a guitar from them -

When you order a guitar, certain things like body size, neck shape, width, spacing, scale, - basically all the ergonomic issues - should be left to the buyer. Yes, some of those will affect tone, but let that go for now - And of course, the purely cosmetic issues, like color and sunburst and purflings and inlays - those are also buyer decisions, but to get a really nice total package, I think the luthiers input is a real value there as well.

Beyond that, you should have an idea of what you would want the guitar to sound like when YOU play it, and the WAY you play it - base on that, a good luthier should be able to decide what the bracing, glue, etc, would best achieve that, and I feel that the luthier should provide a good bit of input on the primary materials as well - regardless of everyones opinions on internet forums. You're not hiring a forum, you are hiring a luthier -

Many luthiers use hide glue standard on those parts of the build where they feel it offers the most value, or is the best choice sonically - and using hide glue for every joint is not necessarily the best choice. But I guess it all boils down to a simple philosophy difference - are you hiring a luthier to put together a self chosen group of materials to assemble an object the way you want, or are you hiring a luthier to create an instrument that takes full advantage of all their skill and knowledge and expertise, but built specifically for you -

Of course, all that is kinda thrown out the window with factory builds - there, the greatest advantage of specifying the glue might be that there may only be a few very experienced craftspeople who successfully use it there, and hopefully that skill applies to the other aspects of the construction also under their control -

And as a final point - If I were paying a very large uncharge to get a specific adhesive, I'd also want to see the squeeze out to make sure thats what was used -