Is Hide Glue usually worth the upcharge?

[fixit]

The theory is there. Hide glue gives you a definitely stiffer joint with a molecular bond rather than a surface bond. Heat affects the durability of the instrument to a greater extent so you have to be very mindful of its environment. If you are wanting an instrument that can be repaired over generations hide glue is the only way to go. As for consistently hearing the difference between one with hide glue and one with titebond I cannot. But for other considerations I would pay the $500.


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[brencat]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Dick Boak told me yes to the same question.

So did Richard Hoover to me.

I have two Santa Cruz guitars, one with and one without. Both are incredible and honestly, I can't say there is a benefit. A great guitar is the sum of the total package.

I don't think glue choice makes a difference in sound quality, but I'm curious about future neck repairs on the OPs custom build. If he plans on keeping the guitar permanently, would a neck that is hide-glued be easier to repair when a neck reset becomes necessary?

[J Patrick]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

Good points, I wonder what else would be able to be applied in this situation other than informed opinions. Unless that is you know of a controlled, double blinded study in which two exact guitars are built with different glue. Of course you don't because that study would be impossible to design as no two guitars can be built exactly the same with the same wood. So, opinion it is, what a weird concept on this forum....

...agreed...i personally have had only one guitar custom built for. me..a 1998 Huss&Dalton TD-R, and hide glue was not an option...if i was commissioning a build today i would go with my builders recommendation....

[The Bard Rocks]

I can't hear any difference that hide glue makes (it could be my ears), but to me it adds value. Why? It makes repairs easier as it can be heated and dismantled readily. By the same token, leaving it in the trunk on a hot sunny day is even dumber than with a guitar made with a "lesser" glue.

Hide glue joints are easier to repair because remnants of the old glue are "reactivated" by the new, not necessarily because they come apart easier. Therefore cleaning out a hard to reach joint is not as important on a hide glue repair.

However, it is not true that hide glue is more fragile than synthetic glue in heat. It is the opposite. Titebond and similar glues will give way (creep) under heat alone, but hide glue does not. Hide glue requires heat and moisture and it releases, usually without the creep associated with modern glues.

[fazool]

1) define the word "worth"
2) decide what's worth it to you

[BrunoBlack]

I own guitars with and without hide glue. I've never purchased a guitar because it had hide glue and I can say with certainty that my very best sounding guitars do not have hide glue. Michael Millard seemed very certain when he said it makes no difference. Other luthiers I've spoken to claim they use it because of perception. Having worked with wood adhesives most of my life, I'm inclined to agree with Michael. You are trying to make 2 pieces of wood act a 1 piece of wood when you create a glue bond. If you do static testing of properly fabricated glue joints, you will see similar strength and stiffness results in glued vs unglued joints with the glues typically used. And the failure is typically wood failure, not glue failure when you load the joints to failure. Since I've never done any acoustical testing of glued connections, I will say I have no evidence at all regarding the impact on sound. But given the fact that you are placing both pieces of wood in intimate contact with each other under pressure, I don't see how the use of hide glue could be much of an influence. That just my opinion.

As Todd mentions above, all bets are off if the glue joints are exposed to excessive heat and moisture.

[Scotso]

In a word...no. I have been told by several folks that repair guitars, as opposed to those who build, that they think they see fewer joint failures with Titebond than hide glue. I do not know if this is correct. But if you cannot hear a difference and are going to keep a guitar a while, why risk it?

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Dick Boak told me yes to the same question.

On a Martin custom, I would agree with Dock on this, but only after we passed a certain price point.

[vintageom]

I have yet to hear a guitar built using hot hide glue that sounds less that wonderful.

My bet is that builders using it are also using better materials and workmanship on those guitars. They are also built for a higher price point.

I like how hide glue pulls wooden parts tighter when it hardens.

I like how hard hide glue dries.

I like how hide glue is workable for repairs.

I like the nostalgia of traditional musical instrument craftsmanship. Hide glue use is centuries old.

I like the fact that it takes practice to use hide glue properly and the preparation of the wood surfaces for a great fit.

I own guitars made with both modern adhesives and hide glue. I have a Martin, a Santa Cruz and a Gibson built using hide glue. Each were trade ups from their non-hide glue brothers with same specs. The hide glue versions sound better. If they had not sounded better, I would have stayed with the standard Titebond versions.

I recently played a Collings D1A along side a D1A Traditional. The Traditional with hide glue is a better sounding guitar, but the traditional also has a baked top along with the hide glue.

I have not heard a guitar that sounds worse with hide glue versus Titebond.

If you cannot hear the difference, the price is too much.

If you can hear it and afford it, it is worth it.

[GibbyPrague]

That really depends on how good a player are you ?

[Toby Walker]

But how can you really hear the difference between a guitar made with hide glue and one made without? Can anyone, or has anyone ever compared two identical - in every detail besides the glue - guitars in the past? How could they? One would have to use the exact same wood cut from the same tree and all built within the same time period if you wanted to honestly compare the two guitars. Or would it matter what the luthier ate for lunch that day?

As others have said, if you think there's a difference then it's worth the upcharge.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

But how can you really hear the difference between a guitar made with hide glue and one made without? Can anyone, or has anyone every compared two identical - in every detail besides the glue - guitars in the past? How could they? One would have to use the exact same wood cut from the same tree and all built within the same time period if you wanted to honestly compare the two guitars. Or would it matter what the luthier ate for lunch that day?

As others have said, if you think there's a difference then it's worth the upcharge.

+1

People with strong willingness to believe and poor analytical skills will buy into just about anything.

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by Haasome

I own guitars with and without hide glue. I've never purchased a guitar because it had hide glue and I can say with certainty that my very best sounding guitars do not have hide glue. Michael Millard seemed very certain when he said it makes no difference. Other luthiers I've spoken to claim they use it because of perception. Having worked with wood adhesives most of my life, I'm inclined to agree with Michael. You are trying to make 2 pieces of wood act a 1 piece of wood when you create a glue bond. If you do static testing of properly fabricated glue joints, you will see similar strength and stiffness results in glued vs unglued joints with the glues typically used. And the failure is typically wood failure, not glue failure when you load the joints to failure. Since I've never done any acoustical testing of glued connections, I will say I have no evidence at all regarding the impact on sound. But given the fact that you are placing both pieces of wood in intimate contact with each other under pressure, I don't see how the use of hide glue could be much of an influence. That just my opinion.

As Todd mentions above, all bets are off if the glue joints are exposed to excessive heat and moisture.

Great reply....thank you, very clearly stated