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If we summarize my posts Mike mentioned, Quote:
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None of this deflects from my initial comment to Mike, that the problem with this industry is, there are people with no real world experience that go and buy some tools from business's like stewmac, hang a shingle over there shed and call themselves a luthier and attempt to sell there services as a commercial entity. Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE Last edited by mirwa; 06-20-2016 at 07:27 PM. |
#47
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To start with, I am a designated Warranty repair agent for Martins Distributors in my country, I state this because I get people with older Martins bring me there guitars. My customers know way more than me about whats original and whats not on vintage guitars. For older guitars with solid truss block or no truss at all, I slip the fretboard, that is, I put the guitar into backbow with clamps and with heat slip the board. I have also retro fitted older guitars with functional working truss rods I have also retro fitted twin carbon fibre truss rods under the fretboard as well, so it retains the original look but with the strength of carbon fibre. I give all the options of what I can do to the customer and they make the decision on which path to follow. As far as compression fretting, unless we are epoxying (floating) the frets in, then all refrets IMO are compression fret jobs, it just varies to the degree of how much. I always level a board out before I do any fret work, to me its kind of pointless doing otherwise. Note: as Bruce mentioned on the other page, you cannot really plane a fretboard fitted with mother of pearl, it chips out, breaks off and yes damages your tools. Its small things like this that show a person knows what there doing. Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE Last edited by mirwa; 06-20-2016 at 08:09 PM. |
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Without looking, I'm assuming the original thread is in the General Discussion section? Things like this are the main reason I haven't looked there in a couple years. |
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Guilty. I don't think I misrepresented your views in that context, but apologize if I did. Thanks for clarifying here.
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As this has become a thread of controversy, I thought it best to make a clear statement, not that I felt misrepresented . . . Yet.
It is true (in my mind) that all fretting is or should be a kind of compression fretting as the fingerboard relies on the presence of the frets to have its strength. But actually, compression fretting usually means using frets with baying thickness tangs in order to control the exact relief of the neck. The modern truss rod, which did not yet exist to my knowledge when I started building, has obviated the need for frets to fit tightly, but I personally feel like I have failed to do the work properly if I am using glue to hold them in or down, not that I hesitate to do so when needed. |
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A buddy and I recently made the trip from East Tennessee to Ann Arbor Michigan for a "pro fretting and set up" class. His guitar was a Martin 1968 O-16NY that he purchased new and over the years had become unplayable. He "compression fretted" his guitar, I was a casual observer from the adjacent bench, very subtle approach, Fretboard was leveled with a 16" sanding beam (I believe he got his from Murmac) minimal stock removal then going mainly by feel and careful observation of how the neck was responding, just a hint of backbow was introduced. After a very assiduous fret level, crown and polish when strung up it was absolutely perfect. The key being minimal stock removal, superb action and playability.
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Andersonville Tennessee Clinch River Instruments, White Oak O, 13 fret Nick Lucas, 1937 spec D-18 Martin 000-28 EC Gibson Les Paul Gibson 335 Dot Bunch of Strats Fender B-Bender Tele |
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As a new paying sponsor of this forum I have now been here long enough to observe a pattern with your posting style and behavior. You are a person who starts fights based on HOW you disagree with people. I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me or anything I say, and I feel most people are the same, cordial disagreement on a forum is quite normal. I'm not going to PM you or write a moderator to complain about your posting style, I'll just tell you right here right now, PLEASE STOP STARING FIGHTS WITH YOUR AGGRESSIVE ATTITUDE. It's not so much what you say, its how you're saying it. Thank you very much
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http://www.jessupegoldastini.com/ |
#53
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Regarding fitting frets tightly vs. loosely, I think it's worth mentioning why some of us are inclined to shoot for a looser fit. This was mentioned by Redir, and it has to do with how the neck distorts due to fret compression. The tighter you fit the frets, the more relief you lose. The appeal of fitting the frets looser is that the shape of the fingerboard stays closer to the way you planed it. Those who prefer tighter fitting slots must anticipate the way the compression will affect the neck, and factor that in accordingly. This means the tighter the fit, the more guesswork is involved, and I don't like having to guess when I'm trying to be precise. That said, I don't like them to fit too sloppy either, therefore my current method of fretting is somewhat of a compromise. I'm shooting for a minimal change in the shape of the board, while still maintaining somewhat of a compression fit - but not so much that I would feel confident not using glue. Despite my tendency to not fit the frets too tightly, I still anticipate losing .001"-.003" of relief because of fret compression. For those of you who fit frets tightly enough that glue is not required, I wonder if you would talk a little about your strategy for leveling the fingerboard. And if anyone has anything else to offer about compression fretting vintage Martins, I'm all ears. Regarding "planing" vs. "leveling", I never thought about it before, but I've always used those terms interchangeably, so I apologize for the confusion. I never actually used a plane iron for fingerboard leveling. I bought one when I was working on my first build, simply because it was one of the tools Melvin Hiscock recommends for leveling fingerboards in his book. But before I had the chance to use it for that, I was offered a job at the guitar repair shop, and I was trained to level frets and fingerboards with a long, flat sanding board, which is actually a modified auto body tool called a file board (which is a misnomer - it should be called a sandpaper board). I still use the same tool for much of my leveling needs, and many other things not related to fret work. FWIW, I find online forums to be incredibly beneficial at their best, and absolutely infuriating at their worst. But in this case, because of a polite disagreement, a dialogue took place which has altered my views and cleared up some of my misconceptions on the subject of compression fretting - to a degree that I'm re-thinking my approach to vintage Martin refrets. Thanks guys for taking the time to discuss this! Last edited by Hot Vibrato; 06-21-2016 at 08:47 PM. |
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The introduction of the truss rod is a prime example, let alone a two-way adjustable rod. I "think" the progression went, no rod, then the steel tube rod, then the one way adjustable, and now the two way rod. Never the less some ABSOLUTE GENIUS developed the adjustable rod {I'm sure someone here knows who} but it's sad to me that it took as long as it did for it to become standard issue in most all guitars as the nut and bolt were around for quite some time prior to the Martin co. starting up. The only guitars I will repair are mine, that being said I do find these topics very interesting in that it helps me think about things I don't want my instruments to do. I AM NOT MARTIN BASHER, I think they are a great company with a great product and that everyone here has learned something from them one way or another, I just think that by being one of the first factory made guitars they have had all their trials and errors exposed for all to see. We all know there's a million lessons to be learned in one failure and that their history, good bad and ugly is a great historical learning experience for what works and what we want to do, and sometimes, not what we want to do.
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http://www.jessupegoldastini.com/ |
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Never have I posted something like this in response to a person asking how to remove and refit a bridge http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430319 Quote:
The topics get steered of course, by those that interject a second opinion on a conversation being held between someone else, they may personally feel they have been affronted, they may feel they have a duty to speak out, its irrelevant the reasons why, this sometimes gets heated opinions, sometimes that does not get heated, in the above instance you will note I never replied to loui's last comment, this was becuase I felt he may have been affronted by my statements and taken them personally which was not my intent, as such I left the conversation with loui having the last say, but never have I been so condescending to another person that asks for help on a repair such as that I referenced above. In the last 4 weeks I have commented on 4 topics, Here is a link to a question someone just asked a couple of days ago, please feel free to show me where my trend of being aggressive according to you is predominant in that response http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=433883 The other topic I have replied to in the last 2 weeks http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=432931 And then the only other topic I have replied to in the last 3 weeks http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=430260 Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE Last edited by mirwa; 06-22-2016 at 12:39 AM. |
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http://www.jessupegoldastini.com/ |
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Steve, I'm passing this one along to you FWIW... Another person called you "aggressive". I can't quite agree with that, but if you look at your first comment on this thread above - "Purists are so full of it". I think most people would agree that this is an adversarial/confrontational/inflammatory type of expression. It will add little value in moving the conversation ahead, and it will have a high chance of raising people's hackles. Then, as people reacted to you, you seem to have taken a defensive tone, and things continued spiralling. Boys and girls... It's all good!! Put out your ideas, let people see them, and take them or leave them. Father's day just passed. Even though I had a fine day with my wife and 2 kids, my thoughts were of a friend who lost his boy a few years ago. Recently there was the 2 year old stolen and drowned by a gator. In my neck of the woods, a 4 year old drowned last week in his grandparents grimy swimming pool. There are a lot better things to devote one's efforts than arguing publicly on a forum. Praise the day, and be thankful. My sermon is over. Oh, and compression fretting is fine, if one understands its effects and limitations. Oh, and I'd hesitate to remove excessive amounts of fingerboard material for reasons already expressed in this thread. Since many (most/all??) older Martin's were nitro finished, even an operation like removing the FB to replace the truss is much more feasible than on a Yamaha with thick poly something-or-other finish that makes is difficult to burn in future layers if a similar repair was necessary.
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---- Ned Milburn NSDCC Master Artisan Dartmouth, Nova Scotia |
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Totally agree, and yes when I wrote the purists are xx I knew it was inflammatory at the start.
Whoops... Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE |
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No rod, ebony bar, steel tee bar, ebony during WWII, back to tee bar, steel square tube, aluminum channel one-way rod, two-way rod, tee bar on Authentics. Gibson is generally credited with inventing the adjustable rod in the 1920's. Martin has historically been conservative when it comes to changes. For example, they were the last (by over 30 years) to abandon bar frets. Bar frets introduced the concept of compression fretting. Bar fret necks can hold up to steel string tension with no reinforcement. |
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