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  #46  
Old 09-22-2015, 01:04 PM
kydave kydave is offline
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Besides, I've been playing steel strings for as long as I've been playing classical, with a hint of electric guitar thrown into the mix.
Sorry, but without an intro we have to kind of pick up what we can from posts & I thought I saw something about not owning a steel string for the past 4 years... My mistake, but feel free to open a "Hello, new guy here and this is me..." thread.
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  #47  
Old 09-22-2015, 01:58 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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What red spruce (adi) sounds like on a guitar is affected by a pile of different variables. Red spruce sounds like spruce, and there is a significant overlap of characteristics between red spruce and the other varieties, so that Sitka or various European spruces or Engelmann can sound more like red spruce than some red spruce tops. Thickness, Young's modulus, how the top is braced, how flexible the back and sides are, size of the internal volume, area of the top, etc. are all variables.

I have a couple of guitars with Red Spruce tops that sound great, including a Collings OM1A. I also have several guitars with Red Cedar tops, Sitka spruce, and Italian spruce. They all sound good, but they were all made to operate as a system, not just one isolated piece of wood.

It's too bad that anyone would be unhappy with their Collings guitar, however. It's a shame to spend all that money and not get what you want.

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  #48  
Old 09-22-2015, 02:23 PM
hovishead hovishead is offline
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Having played many Collings dreads with adi tops I've come to the conclusion that I'm personally not a big fan of that sound. It's just a little too bright for my tastes - very clear but on the harsh side IMO. I did play a sitka topped Collings D2 that I really liked however.

I can imagine that a small bodied Collings with an adi top would not be to my liking either but this is just my personal preference.

I think guitar forums contribute to the notion that adi is always better. It's often seen as an upgrade when it's really not.
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  #49  
Old 09-22-2015, 03:25 PM
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BrunoBlack BrunoBlack is offline
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I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but here is an essay written by Dana Bourgeois on tone woods. Pretty interesting explanation of properties associated with various top, back and side woods

http://bourgeoisguitars.net/tonewoods-htm/
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  #50  
Old 09-22-2015, 03:39 PM
dneal dneal is offline
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This thread topic still has me scratching my head...

Perhaps you (or your friend) doesn't like the "Collings" sound rather than the "Adirondack" sound. Collings are pretty consistent in what you get, but adirondack depends on the builder.

If you want a rich/thick/lush sound with lots of overtones, for example, and don't find that in a Collings with an adirondack top; it's not the wood choice that's the problem. That's not a bash on Collings, but just an acknowledgement of what their tonal characteristics are.
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  #51  
Old 09-22-2015, 05:32 PM
Vinyl_Record19 Vinyl_Record19 is offline
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Originally Posted by dneal View Post
This thread topic still has me scratching my head...

Perhaps you (or your friend) doesn't like the "Collings" sound rather than the "Adirondack" sound. Collings are pretty consistent in what you get, but adirondack depends on the builder.

If you want a rich/thick/lush sound with lots of overtones, for example, and don't find that in a Collings with an adirondack top; it's not the wood choice that's the problem. That's not a bash on Collings, but just an acknowledgement of what their tonal characteristics are.
I think I'm going to need to summarize my original post and some additional details.

The Adirondack topped guitars that I've played, Taylor, Martin and Collings, seem overtly stiff in terms of response and tonal color. As someone else on this topic has pointed out, Adirondack is considered an upgrade. If, to my ears, they don't sound as good as people claim it to be, I think there's something wrong with the picture. Besides, how can a different soundboard ever be considered an upgrade? We all have different ears and tastes, so this "upgrade" mentality is what is really bothering me.

As for my friend, he wanted a steel string guitar that played and felt like a classical guitar. He got the body style, scale length and dimensions to meet that desire, but he couldn't decide on a top. Collings suggested that he "go all the way" with Adirondack because it was a good investment. Now, coming from a classical background, us nylon stringers like a top that responds well to a light touch with deep bass and sparkling trebles. I feel Engelmann or German spruce would've satisfied that desire far more than a traditional steel string top. Instead, my friend bought into Collings's advise and got a guitar that sounded a little disappointing to his ears.

That's what this is about.

Last edited by Vinyl_Record19; 09-22-2015 at 06:28 PM.
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  #52  
Old 09-22-2015, 05:43 PM
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I don't think Adi is considered to be "blanket" upgrade any more than any other wood is. Perhaps the language is the problem. If you read Dana's article with the link provided in my previous post, it's the lack of supply that drives the price higher than Sitka (for example). It's not like getting leather seats in a car. This view, that scarcity of the species controls price, is expressed by virtually every luthier I've seen write on the topic.
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  #53  
Old 09-22-2015, 05:44 PM
HHP HHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19 View Post
I think I'm going to need to summarize my original post and some additional details.

The Adirondack topped guitars that I've played, Taylor, Martin and Collings, seem overtly stiff in terms of response and tonal color. As someone else on this topic has pointed out, Adirondack is considered an upgrade. If, to my ears, they don't sound as good as people claim it to be, I think there's something wrong with the picture. Besides, how can a different soundboard ever be considered an upgrade? We all have different ears and tastes, so this "upgrade" mentality is what is really bothering me.

As for my friend, he wanted a steel string guitar that played and felt like a classical guitar. He got the body style, scale length and dimensions to meet that desire, but he couldn't decide on a top. Collings suggested that he "go all the way" with Adirondack because it was a good investment. Now, coming from a classical background, us nylon stringers like a top that's responds well to a light touch with deep bass and sparkling trebles. I feel Engelmann or German spruce would've satisfied that desire far more than a traditional steel string top. Instead, my friend bought into Collings's advise and got a guitar that sounded a little disappointing to his ears.

That's what this is about.
What was it that induced your friend to buy a Collings in the first place? Had he played some he liked? Why wouldn't he just order one based on one he knew he liked? Did he try out other makers prior to ordering?

I've had the chance to play a few Collings models with Adirondack tops and they seemed to deliver pretty much as expected. I expect the vast majority of Adirondack topped Collings owners are pretty content with what they have.
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  #54  
Old 09-22-2015, 05:54 PM
$ongWriter $ongWriter is offline
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Folks..Adi spruce does affect tone...but it's even more "the builder". The adi top on my Huss & Dalton sounds totally different than the ones on my Colling's. Plus, my 2 Colling's sound totally different but they both sound great.
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  #55  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:09 PM
Vinyl_Record19 Vinyl_Record19 is offline
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Originally Posted by HHP View Post
What was it that induced your friend to buy a Collings in the first place? Had he played some he liked? Why wouldn't he just order one based on one he knew he liked? Did he try out other makers prior to ordering?

I've had the chance to play a few Collings models with Adirondack tops and they seemed to deliver pretty much as expected. I expect the vast majority of Adirondack topped Collings owners are pretty content with what they have.
I'll have to ask him the next time I see him. His friend has a luthier made small jumbo (can't remember the wood combinations) so I'm not sure why he went with a Collings. Maybe he played a few Sitka spruce topped guitars of that manufacturer and thought the Adirondack was going to be an "upgrade", like he was told.
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  #56  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:23 PM
Jeff Scott Jeff Scott is offline
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I have not read this whole thread, but want to say that my Adi topped (and 1/4" scalloped Adi bracing) guitar sounds wonderful to me!
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Last edited by Jeff Scott; 09-22-2015 at 06:49 PM.
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  #57  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:31 PM
dneal dneal is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19 View Post
I think I'm going to need to summarize my original post and some additional details.

The Adirondack topped guitars that I've played, Taylor, Martin and Collings, seem overtly stiff in terms of response and tonal color. As someone else on this topic has pointed out, Adirondack is considered an upgrade. If, to my ears, they don't sound as good as people claim it to be, I think there's something wrong with the picture. Besides, how can a different soundboard ever be considered an upgrade? We all have different ears and tastes, so this "upgrade" mentality is what is really bothering me.

As for my friend, he wanted a steel string guitar that played and felt like a classical guitar. He got the body style, scale length and dimensions to meet that desire, but he couldn't decide on a top. Collings suggested that he "go all the way" with Adirondack because it was a good investment. Now, coming from a classical background, us nylon stringers like a top that's responds well to a light touch with deep bass and sparkling trebles. I feel Engelmann or German spruce would've satisfied that desire far more than a traditional steel string top. Instead, my friend bought into Collings's advise and got a guitar that sounded a little disappointing to his ears.

That's what this is about.
Adirondack is a price "upgrade" because it's not as plentiful as sitka. I think a lot of folks mistake that for a quality upgrade.

Put a good set of headphones on and listen to this Traphagen 000 (yeah, I know YouTube videos don't necessarily replicate what the guitar sounds like in person, but it does demonstrate the balance, clarity and sustain of the guitar).

Dake Traphagen is famous for his classical guitars, but I think this is a great example of what a talented luthier can do with adirondack - which is also the case with Dana Bourgeois, James Goodall and Michael Millard (as well as others). I'm still kicking myself for not buying this guitar when it was for sale...

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  #58  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:46 PM
Vinyl_Record19 Vinyl_Record19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dneal View Post
Adirondack is a price "upgrade" because it's not as plentiful as sitka. I think a lot of folks mistake that for a quality upgrade.

Put a good set of headphones on and listen to this Traphagen 000 (yeah, I know YouTube videos don't necessarily replicate what the guitar sounds like in person, but it does demonstrate the balance, clarity and sustain of the guitar).

Dake Traphagen is famous for his classical guitars, but I think this is a great example of what a talented luthier can do with adirondack - which is also the case with Dana Bourgeois, James Goodall and Michael Millard (as well as others). I'm still kicking myself for not buying this guitar when it was for sale...

I have no doubt that an individual luthier could make a certain top sing. They're not constrained with warranties so they can brace them and thin them out to any degree they see fit. I'll probably find an Adi guitar that I like someday. Perhaps the moral of this topic is to heed caution around manufacturer Adirondack guitars.

Last edited by Vinyl_Record19; 09-22-2015 at 07:11 PM.
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  #59  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:51 PM
Jeff Scott Jeff Scott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19 View Post
Perhaps the moral of this topic is to heed caution around manufacturer Adirondack guitars.
That can be said of virtually anything, not just Adi, nor guitars............

Obvious, perhaps , but sometimes the obvious needs restating.
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  #60  
Old 09-22-2015, 06:59 PM
handers handers is offline
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Originally Posted by blindboyjimi View Post
5 of 7 of my small body guitars are Adirondack. If you don't get it, that's cool. I get it.
+1

OP: come visit New Orleans. Stop by to try my Froggy. No guarantees but v different from a Collings.

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