Harmonica (what key) choice problem

[Winfred]

Hi!

I like open D tuning with DADF#AD, but the songs I've written... open D is too high for my voice so I tune it a whole step down at GCGECG which I think basically means open C.

After I performed at an open mic a guy who seemed to know theory said, "Looks like you were playing in open C but you're using fingering like you're in Open D."

I don't know what that means as I thought if I play in open D I can just think, "okay I just tuned it lower so it suits my voice better." and just play like I'm in open D. I mean I just play from that same open D perspective, and think like it's just tuned lower. Is that guy right about what he said? I do the same with standard tuning, if too high I tune it all a half or sometimes a whole step down and just play the same as if I were in standard tuning.

The gist of it all here is also the now big problem of my harmonica choice. When I was much younger I use to simply play harmonica and sing in standard tuning. If I played a song in the key of C I liked just using a C harmonica and all was fine. Sometimes I would count four on my fingers i.e. if it's a song in C then I'd count "C, D, E, F" and cross harp with a harmonica in F, or like a song in D, then "D, E, F, G" and cross harp in G and so forth... For some reason I mainly like to play a harmonica in the same key and not cross harp.

Recently I wrote some of my best songs ever in open D tuned a whole step down because of, due to the good old aging process, my poor vocal range. (example, when I was young I use to sing exactly to pitch all of Elton John singing, "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds", no way now!) I suddenly decided my open D tuned a whole step down songs would sound even better if I had interludes playing harmonica. I thought since a whole step down is open C I'll just use a C harmonica. The problem is the C harmonica only works when I play only some of my chords in the first position, way down the neck. If I go up the neck then it suddenly sounds terrible. It seems like I would need maybe 2 or 3 harmonicas to play all of what I do with my open C songs using D fingering!

Is that right? Really playing up the neck in open D fingering with only 2 fingers, it's just doing the scale, "do, rey, mi, fa..." and some areas sound like sustained and diminished chords and people telling me I sound like Nick Drake a musician who many years ago played in odd tunings. One of the songs I wrote I start in "ti" just below the 12th fret with index on 10 3rd string, and middle on 11 4th string, and the rest open. I looked it up and it's some strange A sus chord with... I forgot, something added on, like Asus9 or something, and so my song sounds kind of austere and maybe written in the key of Asus9!

All I at least wish I could now try are harmonica interludes. Since I finger like that guy said, like I'm in open D but playing in open C, and try my "D" harmonica and wow it doesn't even come close to matching! Does this mean I have to buy a harmonica in some odd key? I have a chromatic harmonica, one of those with a button on the side, and it's in "C". I got it for a Christmas present about 40 years ago and I never use it. I can't at all relate to a chromatic harmonica. It's also of course can't be used with a neck brace.

What can I do in my case? Does it mean I have to buy something like a sophisticated pro complete set of harmonicas in a whole variety of odd keys, like a harmonica in A# etc? If I have to I will dig very deep on my low budget and do so as I really hope to have interludes with harmonica. If so, what brand of harmonica do you like? I just looked as I heard Seydel is very good, but wow the price! I hope to be ethical though and not buy made in China if possible. Thanks for any input!

Kindest Regards,
Winfred

[frankmcr]

If you're playing guitar in the key of C, you want either:

a harmonica in the key of C for "straight harp" (think folk/traditional style players - Dylan, Neil Young)

or

a harmonica in the key of F for "cross harp" (think most blues harmonica players).

Here's a chart showing what key harmonica you'll need for cross harp playing in each major key: http://harmonicajoe.com/cross-harp-chart/

In spite of the name, Harmonica for Dummies is an excellent book, written by harmonica guru/maven/expert Winslow Yerxa. Well worth checking out.

[619TF]

Respectfully, that is one of the worst charts I've ever seen. Hard to follow and incomplete. Try this one instead:

[robj144]

If you play in open D tuned down a full step, yes, it's open C.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by 619TF

Respectfully, that is one of the worst charts I've ever seen. Hard to follow and incomplete. Try this one instead:

If you mean the one I posted, in my opinion it is in fact exceptionally easy to follow, and I selected it precisely because it shows only the harmonicas needed for cross harp, which is what the OP is asking about.

Quite honestly, I do not consider a chart showing 3rd etc - without even explaining what those are - to be at all helpful to the OP.

[Winfred]

Hi Frank!

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond and with the chart and all, so very nice of you! I already tried playing my C harmonica the way I'm tuned and it only works in the very first 5 frets. Above or up the neck it's like being the way off wrong harmonica.

Another musician, very experienced I imagine, said to me right after I played my turn at an open mic, "It looks like you're playing in open C but using open D finger positions."

I say that and he meant the way I press on the strings while I sing, the "chord shapes" I think.

I remember musicians in jams saying before they would play their song in turn, "Okay! Capo 5th fret or C and using G shapes." or something like that and they'd use chording patterns like they do in I think key of G in standard tuning. Is that right? I was playing banjo more then and just played as I always do, by ear. So when I was playing guitar and singing solo at open mic that guy I think basically said I was playing open C with D shapes. I wish I could've asked him later only he was from out of town and traveled on.

So I still don't know what to do. I play very basically and mainly with 2 or three fingers in open D. I play strings in the area of the note of the guitar scale around the note I'm singing.

This is the scale I mean, Do is 000000, rey is 001200, Mi is 003400, Fa is 005500, So is 007700, La is 009800, Ti is 00 10 11 00, Do is 00 12 12 00.

I'll play the 1st string or highest string too the same as the lower note in the scale and it works as it's an octave higher. I'll do the same with the lowest or 6th string. With that said, then what key of harmonica would I need? Also, why can I use open D chord shapes in open C and it works the same as when I'm using them in open D? If you don't have time for this I fully understand.
Thanks for All!
Winfred

Originally Posted by frankmcr

If you're playing guitar in the key of C, you want either:

a harmonica in the key of C for "straight harp" (think folk/traditional style players - Dylan, Neil Young)

or

a harmonica in the key of F for "cross harp" (think most blues harmonica players).

Here's a chart showing what key harmonica you'll need for cross harp playing in each major key: http://harmonicajoe.com/cross-harp-chart/

In spite of the name, Harmonica for Dummies is an excellent book, written by harmonica guru/maven/expert Winslow Yerxa. Well worth checking out.

[Winfred]

Hi 619TF!

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond! So nice of you to send the chart too! I have to admit, and please bear with me, that I'm still perplexed as a C harmonica I already tried, plus I tried my D harmonica just in case. The C works just in the first 5 frets, but anything above that it doesn't. Please, if you have time, see my response to Frank. Maybe you have some insight too. Sorry about not comprehending things. It seems my case is unusual... but as usual it's probably me ha! If you don't have time I fully understand.

Sincerely,
Winfred

Originally Posted by 619TF

Respectfully, that is one of the worst charts I've ever seen. Hard to follow and incomplete. Try this one instead:

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by Winfred

Hi Frank!
Winfred

If the thing is that the harp sounds kind of "off" as you move into higher positions on the guitar . . . that may be getting us into "just intonation vs. equal temperament" issues. Here's a thing on that -

https://www.patmissin.com/tunings/audio.html

- which is kind of technical and maybe not something to be concerned about in the early stages of harmonica + guitar playing.

There's an inherent dissonance (first few Dylan albums) between the instruments which can be minimized, but at the cost of a certain exciting raucous wildness.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by Winfred

I already tried playing my C harmonica the way I'm tuned and it only works in the very first 5 frets. Above or up the neck it's like being the way off wrong harmonica.

What are you doing up above the 5th fret anyway? Are you playing chords or are you playing scales? If you're playing in the key of C, then with your harp style, the C harp is the one you want. When you change to an G chord, the C harp will handle that well by sucking in, but F or many other chords are not so compatible with a C harp, so you find a single note on the harp that works for that chord.

Originally Posted by Winfred

Another musician, very experienced I imagine, said to me right after I played my turn at an open mic, "It looks like you're playing in open C but using open D finger positions."

Well yeah, because it's like you're playing in D, but you've tuned down a whole step, so it sounds like you're in C, but looks like you're in D.

Originally Posted by Winfred

I play very basically and mainly with 2 or three fingers in open D. I play strings in the area of the note of the guitar scale around the note I'm singing.

So you're playing the guitar sort of like a dulcimer?

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Quite honestly, I do not consider a chart showing 3rd etc - without even explaining what those are - to be at all helpful to the OP.

I've dabbled with harp for years. I have no idea what those various "positions" mean! I cross-harp a lot, so I just know that a G harp plays in D -- the 5th note in the G scale. But I also play "Dylan style" on occasion, where the key of the harp plays in the key of the song. Of course, harps really only give you two chords. A G harp plays G (blow out) and D (suck in) chords (well, higher up it gives you G7th, but...), but after that you've got to scramble to find a compatible note for the chord. A C harp plays C and G chords. Early on, Dylan just used 1, 4, 5 chords. On the 4 chord, he basically cheated with the harp!

[619TF]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

If you mean the one I posted, in my opinion it is in fact exceptionally easy to follow, and I selected it precisely because it shows only the harmonicas needed for cross harp, which is what the OP is asking about.

Quite honestly, I do not consider a chart showing 3rd etc - without even explaining what those are - to be at all helpful to the OP.

To be honest I just thought the lack of clear lines and an explanation that "cross harp" is actually 2nd position could cause an issue. If someone is a harmonica player then they really should know what the 2nd, 3rd, etc positions were and how they related to what the key of the song was. If not, well, Google is your friend in that case and it doesn't take more than a few minutes to read up on what they are and/or what cross harp is.

Since I am a novice at best I found the chart I posted to be particularly helpful as it expanded upon "just" the 2nd position and might help the OP look at the bigger picture in order to more fully comprehend the concept. If it's "too much" for you then you don't have to use it.

Originally Posted by Winfred

Hi 619TF!

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond! So nice of you to send the chart too! I have to admit, and please bear with me, that I'm still perplexed as a C harmonica I already tried, plus I tried my D harmonica just in case. The C works just in the first 5 frets, but anything above that it doesn't. Please, if you have time, see my response to Frank. Maybe you have some insight too. Sorry about not comprehending things. It seems my case is unusual... but as usual it's probably me ha! If you don't have time I fully understand.

Sincerely,
Winfred

Sorry Winfred but I really don't know much more than what I've posted here. My harmonica playing is really in the first stages of learning. I mean like just a few weeks in so I was excited to see a harmonica related question here at the AGF and meant no disrespect to anyone in my initial response (though it appears to heave been taken that way by frankmcr). I'm not sure what happens when you're playing barre chords. My experience so far has only been with open chords in standard tuning and even then, I'll admit, pretty limited. I was really posting the chart so you could have a 50 thousand foot overview of the multiple position playing options and thought maybe there's another way to do what you were trying to accomplish and that the chart might lead you in that direction. Good luck with the harp playing!

[FrankHudson]

I may have missed it (and I'm no harmonica expert) but is it possible the OP, while playing a guitar tuned in Open C, is not playing their problematic song in the key of C?

Sure there are keys that certain open tunings seem to favor, but open tuning does not equal "must be in the same key as the open tuning."

[Winfred]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I may have missed it (and I'm no harmonica expert) but is it possible the OP, while playing a guitar tuned in Open C, is not playing their problematic song in the key of C?

Sure there are keys that certain open tunings seem to favor, but open tuning does not equal "must be in the same key as the open tuning."

Hi Frank!

Thanks for responding! I tried my C harmonica and it worked only in the first position area frets 1 through 4 or 5 but not up the neck. I then tried "cross harping" using a G harmonica and the same thing happened, only worked in first position and 5 of my 6 strings are okay going up the neck yet I have problems once I'm up around the 10th and 12th frets with the guitar within itself being off, but the harmonica sounds way off, not even close. Maybe it's all "me". There's that saying, something like, "If it can go wrong, it's me."

The other thing is, see above too, as this more experience musician saw me play at a coffeehouse open mic and when I was going back to my table he said, "It looks like you play in open C but you're doing it with open D fingerings." I should've asked him what that meant, but he was only home to visit for Christmas and lived in New Orleans. Really I was singing songs in open D but was straining too much to keep pitch so I just considered it tuning down a whole step and kept playing like I do in open D and it was easier on my vocal cords. So in reality I was in open C (CGCEGC) instead of (DADF#AD). I have arthritis and tendonitis but in open C or Open D I fret with 2 fingers and sometimes use a third finger or one finger at times too, or I bar across all strings too. So I just play according to where I'm singing in the regular scale meaning, "do, rey, mi..." but when I just use 2 fingers on the 3rd and 4th strings I also found out I'm playing in some areas like up around the 10 and 11 or 9 and 8 that they are sus chords or augmented 9ths etc and I wonder if my harmonica isn't designed to play like that unless it's a chromatic harmonica. Does that sound right?

Another musician here said when I play with 2 fingers then I'm playing my guitar like a Dulcimer. Even still, does that mean my harmonica would be way off when I'm playing up around 9 and 8 or 10 and 11 or 12 and higher? Also when Joni Mitchell played her song about the radio. Was it, "Turn My Radio On"? I forgot the real name of that song that was on her first album. she played that song with two and three fingers in open D... so she was just playing her guitar like it was a Dulcimer and a harmonica wouldn't have worked with it?

Any input from anyone is much appreciated too.

Top of the Day!
Winfred

[mr. beaumont]

I'd need to see what you're playing on the guitar, especially this "up the neck" stuff you speak of. What are the NOTES?

Songs are in a key...or they could be in more than one key. Harmonicas have a home key, or a cross harp key...

One harmonica will not cover every song, unless you play everything in the same key.

[Winfred]

Originally Posted by DCCougar

What are you doing up above the 5th fret anyway? Are you playing chords or are you playing scales? If you're playing in the key of C, then with your harp style, the C harp is the one you want. When you change to an G chord, the C harp will handle that well by sucking in, but F or many other chords are not so compatible with a C harp, so you find a single note on the harp that works for that chord.



Well yeah, because it's like you're playing in D, but you've tuned down a whole step, so it sounds like you're in C, but looks like you're in D.



So you're playing the guitar sort of like a dulcimer?

Hi DCCougar!

Your note about playing like a dulcimer kept with me. I've played only a very few times on a dulcimer and being shown with two fingers. Is that what you mean, that because I play with 2 fingers (at times I use 3 fingers and also at times bar completely across at the 5th and 7th frets like when I do my fake Leo Kottke "Sailor's Grave On The Prairie" -- also in parts of that song I use one finger on the 6th string. Leo with his sense of humor would get a big laugh out of me! I wish he'd play in St. Paul, or Minneapolis, MN again. I like the story Leo's neighbor said of many years ago. Leo was going to have a concert in his I think it was back yard, so she was setting up folding chairs. A lady was also doing the same, and she realized she was Linda Ronstadt ha!) or do you mean I'm playing something different in a music notation kind of way?

Top of the Day!
Winfred