Shopping for a stereo preamp

[anton]

I thinking about a good stereo pre to add to my RME Babyface Pro, plugging it into the unbalanced line ins. Thought I would solicit some opinions here.

My main recording mics are a pair of Gefell M300's. I've also got an AKG 414 XLS, thinking I'll probably get another one when I get this new pre.

There are various examples of my playing on my YT channel, but here is an older video that I like the tone of. I'm shooting for that warm round slightly darker tone.



I'm aware of alot of the usual suspects that folks here use, like Great River, John Hardy, A-Designs MP2-A, etc. One thought is to just drop ~$2000 on one of these units and have a great piece of gear that will probably out last me.

There are also cheaper units these days that seem to get good reviews, like the Warm Audio 273, for half the price. I wonder if there is a sound quality or longevity/build quality difference.

I suppose i could demo a few units from a place with a good return policy.

[guitarman68]

Hey Anton,

beautiful playing and sound - I like it a lot !

I use a Pendulum MDP-1 for stereo acoustic guitar recordings. I love its deep, warm and detailed sound. I also own a John Hardy M1 2 channel which is a mighty fine preamp, but for some reason I always use the MDP-1.
That's what I use for years, can't comment on others. I also have an Universal Audio 2-610 which does not see much use for finger style acoustic in my studio.

Some day I'll record a preamp comparison Pendulum MDP-1 vs. John Hardy M1.

[Doug Young]

I doubt you'll get a huge improvement over your RME without spending a fair bit. The RME's are quite nice. The differences between preamps tend to be less than we'd expect in most cases, tho there are always situations where it can matter, and depends on.... For example, if what you need is more quiet gain for ribbons, that's a specific need that might steer you to something. There are also preamps that add color and so on.

I did this demo a long time back, comparing my Great River vs UAD Apollo vs a Zoom H6. That's a fairly big spread price-wise and presumably quality-wise, so you can gauge how much difference there might be between the GR (~$1000/channel), UAD ($300/channel?) and the Zoom ($50/channel?). Might make a bigger difference on something other than solo guitar?

https://soundcloud.com/doug-young/se...amp-comparison

There's also this demo comparing 3 preamps I did more recently, exploring both the higher end and the "color" aspect:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=602157

Your mileage may vary, but these are at least a few examples of how much difference a preamp might make on solo guitar, for me.

[RRuskin]

Biggest bank for the buck is the FMR Audio RNP. Holds its own with the big boys.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I doubt you'll get a huge improvement over your RME without spending a fair bit. The RME's are quite nice. The differences between preamps tend to be less than we'd expect in most cases, tho there are always situations where it can matter, and depends on.... For example, if what you need is more quiet gain for ribbons, that's a specific need that might steer you to something. There are also preamps that add color and so on.

I did this demo a long time back, comparing my Great River vs UAD Apollo vs a Zoom H6. That's a fairly big spread price-wise and presumably quality-wise, so you can gauge how much difference there might be between the GR (~$1000/channel), UAD ($300/channel?) and the Zoom ($50/channel?). Might make a bigger difference on something other than solo guitar?

https://soundcloud.com/doug-young/se...amp-comparison

There's also this demo comparing 3 preamps I did more recently, exploring both the higher end and the "color" aspect:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=602157

Your mileage may vary, but these are at least a few examples of how much difference a preamp might make on solo guitar, for me.

Acoustic guitar is relatively easy to record compared to drums and bass. the typical built-in preamp will not do nearly as good a job as the units from Great River, Hardy, Forrssell, or Millenia.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by anton

I'm aware of alot of the usual suspects that folks here use, like Great River, John Hardy, A-Designs MP2-A, etc. One thought is to just drop ~$2000 on one of these units and have a great piece of gear that will probably out last me.

Your short list is excellent and since you already have great mics and a great interface, a great preamp makes sense as a next step.

I own a two-channel Hardy M1. If you're looking for a clean tone with very little coloration, the Hardy is a fabulous choice.

Assuming you're talking about the Great River MP-2NV, I've never used one but I've heard tracks recorded on it. It imparts a character similar to the old Neve boards from about 50 years ago. If you listened to a lot of music in the early 70s, the MP-2NV should sound familiar to you.

If they're still making them the same as 5-6 years back, the A-Designs MP2-A is a versatile pre because it has a couple of switches that allow you to alter the tone. I've never used one and it's been a lot of years since I've anything recorded on one but it's always been a highly regarded pre. The Pacifica was the one from that lineup I really wanted but never got around to buying. I love how that pre sounds on strummed guitar but now I have a couple of 500 series API 312 pres that generated the same kind of lust for me. For what you play, the MP2-A could be a great choice depending on how useful you find those tonal options.

A couple of other pres you might consider...

Whenever I use a fet mic, the first pre I try is my Demeter VTMP-2c. I swear by that pre. I have a couple of friends with their own studios and loaned it to both of them at some time. Both of them ended up buying one. I don't love that pre on tube mics (it's good, just not my best option) but for fet mics it's almost always the best choice out of my five pres.

The other one I really like is the Sebatron Axis 200VU. Like the A-Designs MP2-A, it's very versatile. It can deliver a beautiful clean character or it can deliver a bit of grunge (which I sometimes like on vocals).

Based on your playing style and what I know of the pres mentioned, I'd guess the Great River MP-2NV or the Demeter VTMP-2c would be best suited for you. If you have any plans to add tube mics down the road, I'd go with the Great River. If you're pretty set with the M300s, I'd give the Demeter the edge.

[alohachris]

Aloha Anton,

You're on the right track with checking out the "usual suspects" of quality preamps. I'm sure you'll find the best, most compatible pre for your signal chain & those nice M-300's.

Although no longer made, like Guitarman & many other recordists, I too was a huge fan of the Pendulum MDP-1a tube preamp from our retired friend Greg Gualtieri. As you may remember from my older AGF posts, I did several home studio shootouts with probably close to 25 high-end preamps & so many quality guitar & vocal recording mic's over many years. So I have a sense of which combos my ears liked.

Neve 1073 & some clones like BAE, Great River MP2-NV, Gordon 5, API 3124+, Forssell SMP-2, Hardy M-1, A-Designs Pacifica (love this one), Manley VoxBox, NPNG, AEA RPQ, Millenia's, Demeter VTMP-2c (excellent), even the Pendulum SPS-1 & Grace Designs Felix2 live preamps - there are SO MANY really great pre's out there. So trust your ears, Anton & enjoy the ride.

But the one preamp that always haunts my dreams was that Pendulum MDP-1a tube pre I owned for many years (Mahalo sdelsolray). It was the smoothest, most accurate of all preamp's I tried or ever owned on every high-end mic I had. Had great stereo features. Very realistic & simply great sound on the Schoeps for acoustic instruments - especially for solo guitar tracks.

What I love most about the MDP-1 preamp is that, just like my Schoeps mic, it is very quiet, AND as flat, neutral & un-colored sounding as any preamp of all time! There are lotsa different degrees of coloration with many other preamps by comparison.

But when I combined the MDP-1a with with my incredibly transparent Microtech-Gefell UM-900 LDC for my vocals, I just stopped using every other combo I had for my little voice/acoustic guitar recordings in my final years. And I gave up my mic addiction on the spot after 40 years of buying, selling or trading the best of mic's from all over the world?!? I was done!

You just know when it sounds right, right? And nothing else will ever satisfy your ears ever again like that.

https://vintageking.com/pendulum-mdp-1a

Look for a used MDP-1a Anton. And of course, the search itself is the real fun when introducing a new piece to your signal chain, especially when trying out mic/pre combos. Happy auditioning, my friend.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

PS: Not a fan of Warm products, despite the savings. Their hype is pure shibai.

PPS:. As was mentioned, the overall effect on sound by a mic preamp - or especially by interfaces - is not as great as among microphones. It can be subtle. What to keep in mind are the very discernible sound differences of how a mic preamp combines with different mic's. It's worth the time to listen to those, Anton. Those may or may not be so subtle as suggested. And of course, not as large a difference as finding the right mic placement in a treated space -alohachris -

[min7b5]

A few month ago I dropped a couple grand on my first high-end mic pres, a pair of 1073 style Heritage Audio 73JR II’s. I ended up sending them back within days. I frankly really struggled to hear much, or really any difference compared to my Apogee Element when used clean. I mean I could definitely hear something when pushing things to a point beyond my tastes in acoustic guitar recording. And I think plugins like Saturn have a lot more flavors of fur on the menu anyway should I feel otherwise.

I noticed a few threads on GearSpace afterward that made me realize I’m not on my own with this: https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-...mps-sound.html

More recently I wanted a simple two-channel USB-C bus powered interface to shoot videos around the house (and hopefully remotely soon) more quickly and easily. I dropped just three bills on the new Audient id14 II, and it also sounds like the same the quality to me. Maybe my ignorance is bliss.. and I know my space is not very professional by any stretch, so I'm sure I’m missing some details.. But still, I do perceive a big difference when moving a microphone less than an inch -this sure was not anything like that.

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by min7b5

.... But I do perceive a big difference when moving a microphone less than an inch -this sure was not anything like that.

Yeah, this is my experience too: a mic in relation to the instrument is a much bigger deal than the difference between good quality preamps.

[sdelsolray]

Anton,

Like Chris, I spent many years with numerous different preamps with the narrow focus of recording solo fingerstyle acoustic and classical guitar. Like Eric, it took me quite a bit of time to learn that what most folks desire in a preamp is not necessarily good for my stated uses. Still, it was a pretty neat journey.

Yes, the Pendulum MDP-1a is a wonderful unit, as are many others. The preamps in the higher quality interfaces are also excellent. RME, Apogee, and some others, make preamps (and converters) that are particularly good for recording solo fingerstyle guitar.

However, in a relative sense, I consider two other parts of the recording chain as more important...microphones and monitors (the beginning and the end). Instead of getting a new outboard preamp, consider upgrading your mics and/or monitors. Your Gefell M300 pair is quite nice (Fletcher said the M300 is what the Neumann KM184 should have been). But a pair of Schoeps CMC64 or Gefell M295 would be a rather noticeable improvement. I don't remember which monitors you have, but I suspect a pair of Quested S7 would make you smile.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

(Fletcher said the M300 is what the Neumann KM184 should have been)

Fletcher from Mercenary?

[anton]

Thanks for chiming in everyone. Part of the reason I want an additional preamp is just to have more inputs available. Sometimes I'll have a stereo pair setup for guitar, and want to record a banjo or something, and its nice not to have to mess around with cables. I suppose I could get a whole new interface like the Apogee Ensemble, but I really like the Babyface Pro and the RME Totalmix software.

Yea, I don't know that I would the difference in a $2K preamp either, compared to the ones on my interface. To that end maybe I should just get something that provides clean gain and is quiet.

Sdelsolray, I thought about another pair of mics, but I really love these Gefell M300's. Borrowing yours those many years ago is part of the reason i got mine. Schoepes or M295's would be fun, but i don't see myself making that leap right now. My monitors are a pair of KRK RP5's, fairly affordable. I've had them for years. I should probably upgrade at some point, but getting more inputs seems a bit higher on the list right now.

[Doug Young]

If all you want to do is add 2 more channels, something like the RNP Rick R suggested seems like a good option.

I still miss the TotalMix software from when I had a Fireface. The Apogee software is ok, but always seems more awkward and less capable than I recall TotalMix being.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by anton

..I really love these Gefell M300's. ..Schoepes or M295's would be fun, but i don't see myself making that leap right now..

Anton you can borrow my Schoepes anytime you want. I really do love them and plan to keep them for the duration. But to be honest, in the very short time that I went from 184s, to M300's, to Schoepes, with some overlap and comparing, I find the differences very tiny.

[MikeMcKee]

I have been using a WA-273 for over two years now. With all due respect to alohachris, I think it's a great product. I've recorded hundreds of hours with it and couldn't be more pleased. When I purchased it I A/B'd with a few others that were twice the price, and I chose the WA for the results...and price was not an issue.