Flat Response Speaker Cabinets

[Vancebo]

Does anybody use one? What is the benefit of it? Is a PA speaker cab an example of a flat response speaker?

Cutting to the chase. I am beginning to do electric guitar through a Line 6 Helix multi effects processor and I want to use the same speaker I use for electric guitar to be used for my acoustic guitars which are all powered by Dazzos. To my ears the Dazzos always sound better through PA type speakers than dedicated acoustic amps. Thanks.

[steve_mac]

I play a hybrid guitar piezo thru Playacoustic and Mags thru Atomic Amps, both direct into Yamaha DBR 10 sounds immense.

[AuntieDiluvian]

There is no such thing as a true flat response speaker cabinet, though some studio monitoring systems come close.

In general, though, the distinction that matters is between instrument speaker cabinets (like a Marshall 1960 4x12 or Ampeg bass cabinet) vs. sound reproduction cabinets like PA or stereo speakers. Instrument speakers intentionally alter the sound, and are part of the instrument, while reproduction systems are designed to reproduce the source material as closely as possible.

So, if you're playing through a traditional amp, the guitar will not sound good if you plug into a PA cabinet - it will sound very harsh and brittle. Similarly, if you try to play an acoustic guitar or mic through a guitar cabinet, it will sound very wrong - very nasal, muddy, and thin.

Generally if you are trying to amplify an acoustic guitar or a modeller (as opposed to a real amp), you just get the best PA-style monitor cabinet you can find and go as direct as possible. You generally get what you pay for in these products, as well, so while their may be differences between them, the overall accuracy tends to get better when you spend more money.

If you want to try to run a single speaker with multiple guitars, the best way to do it is to get a small (inexpensive) mixer/console and a PA monitor cabinet. Personally, I use a Behringer XR12 and a couple of Yamaha DXR12 cabinets. If you also want to run electric and have a modeller that does cabinet emulation, you can plug that directly into one of the console's channel inputs, just like you would into any other amp. You will want to make sure that you have the modeller's cabinet emulator turned on for every patch you use in this way so that it is acting as a full modeller and not just a multi-FX. [Note: The Helix Effects pedal is NOT a modeller - it's just a multi-FX pedal, so it really isn't intended to do this by itself.]

Then you can plug the acoustic guitar feeds into the other console channel inputs, and connect the output of the console to the monitor cabinet(s). You can use a second output to give a line feed to the PA guy, as well, which often can make their life easier. You can also take the monitor feed from the PA and run it through your console as well, so you can mix the monitor feed with your guitars in your one single monitor. This cleans up the stage and makes everything really easy to hear and manage the balance (IMO).

[dcopper]

Vancebo - depends what Helix unit you are using. The Helix, Helix Lt, and HX Stomp are modelers and effects units. The HX Effects is just an effects unit. Not sure which one you have. I have the HX Stomp.

There are a lot of articles about FRFR speakers - (Flat Response, Full Range). Almost all powered speakers are full range - QSC, Bose S1, Yamaha- and make pretty good sound reinforcement for modelers to go direct. Very few, except true high end studio monitors are actually flat response, meaning in a non technical sense that they do not alter or color the sound source that is inputted to them like the HX Stomp.

Headway makes a good high powered FRFR speaker that is fairly inexpensive. I read an article which I cannot locate to refer you to, that the QSC K10 serves as a very good FRFR (even if not true FRFR) sound source.

One important factor is that your modeler should be set to "direct" on the output. The manual discusses how to set up the Helix products for different sound sources.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.
davidc

[sdelsolray]

Daedalus PA Cabinets are fairly flat and about as good as PA cabinets get:

Daedalus SR828 PA Speaker SPL Graph

Daedalus W803 PA Speaker SPL Graph

[Vancebo]

Thanks guys.

My Helix is the full meal deal and it does have built in heads and cabinets to use if I choose. I do choose to use them because I have been plugging into a Bose S1 which is a mini pa. From what I understand so far is a PA is essentially a FRFR speaker. I read that FRFR powered speaker cabinets are used mainly by electric guitarists who use multi effects modelers like me. I just wondered if I could use one of those for my acoustic as well.

I never really need acoustic and electric at the same gig. I do however sing and play acoustic at the same time which could create a problem with this whole plan.

[Spook]

Full Range Flat Response has to be considered in context.

I have to get stuff to the stage. It has to work there. Repeat.

That means manageable weight and durability. Usually designed for purpose music gear.

Bose PA's work well. And there's AER and Acoustic Image. The Schertler Roy is dang near perfect. Other Schertler gear as well. Acus has an interesting collection though harder to get in the US. The Acus 350 AD works very well and the 350 Stage seems to have been thought out by musicians. Don't think it's available any more. Pity.

Powered PA speakers.. to my ears not quite as good but sturdy and loud. There are a great many I haven't tried but they never seem to have the fidelity of gear made for acoustic guitar and voice. If you play weddings they're awfully nice to have though.

[AuntieDiluvian]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

Thanks guys.
I have been plugging into a Bose S1 which is a mini pa. ... I just wondered if I could use one of those for my acoustic as well.

Short answer - yes, you can.

I never really need acoustic and electric at the same gig. I do however sing and play acoustic at the same time which could create a problem with this whole plan.

Not really. You can run a mic and a guitar through that type of system. The S1 has three inputs, so you could use one for the vocal mic, and one each for two guitars.

[GmanJeff]

Try a HeadRush FRFR-108. Inexpensive, lightweight, and relatively accurate reproduction of what you put in to it. Should work well with the Helix and with your acoustic, although it's unclear from your post whether you intend to run your acoustic through the Helix or just want to plug it directly in to a powered speaker. The 108 is also said to work fine as a PA speaker for vocals.

You can also read and ask about this speaker, and the larger FRFR-112, on the HeadRush FB page. FWIW, many people posting there report no longer using conventional guitar amps and speaker cabs after converting to modeling units like the HeadRush or Helix products and FRFR speakers.

[dcopper]

I get great results with My HX Stomp into my BOSE S1s. You just have to make sure you are using the BOSE to monitor your setup in the HX Stomp. It works really well for acoustic as well as electric guitars.
davidc

[TheSaint]

I have been playing electric and acoustic through this set up for several years now, no amps to be seen...!

With the huge improvement in modelling technology in recent years the days of gigging musicians using dedicated amps is surely numbered.

Yes, there's something about playing through an amp that can't easily be explained, but for sheer convenience you can't beat it.

As players, we all strive for the best possible sound at home so that our gig is appreciated more. But the reality is that almost no one in the audience will notice or care whether our sound is only 90% as good as WE know it could be.

It's just so much easier to turn up with a pedal such as the HX Stomp and a powered cabinet. Either use the cab as your PA or a monitor if playing a bigger venue.

Acoustic players generally use less patches than when using electric and that's one of the real benefits. You set up the same pedal at home for both guitars and you arrive at the gig knowing only minor tweaks to the EQ might be needed.

I use the Bose L1 system and an RCF powered cab for smaller venues.

I can't ever seeing me playing with an amp on stage again.

Graham

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Spook

Full Range Flat Response has to be considered in context.

I have to get stuff to the stage. It has to work there. Repeat.

That means manageable weight and durability. Usually designed for purpose music gear.

Bose PA's work well. And there's AER and Acoustic Image. The Schertler Roy is dang near perfect. Other Schertler gear as well. Acus has an interesting collection though harder to get in the US. The Acus 350 AD works very well and the 350 Stage seems to have been thought out by musicians. Don't think it's available any more. Pity.

Powered PA speakers.. to my ears not quite as good but sturdy and loud. There are a great many I haven't tried but they never seem to have the fidelity of gear made for acoustic guitar and voice. If you play weddings they're awfully nice to have though.

Acus looks the part, but their customer service and availability would keep me from buying any of their gear. I had a terrible experience buying one of their Stage 3 preamps. It arrived defective and I got a bit of a run around from the dealer and very slow response from the mfd on what to do to fix my problem. Buyer beware.

[Spook]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Acus looks the part, but their customer service and availability would keep me from buying any of their gear. I had a terrible experience buying one of their Stage 3 preamps. It arrived defective and I got a bit of a run around from the dealer and very slow response from the mfd on what to do to fix my problem. Buyer beware.

Sucks when dealers don't step up. And Acus feels very small town Italian. Which they are. So the slow CS fits.

I purchased my Acus 350 AD through Amazon. Had it for awhile and no issues. Great rig. Have an Acus 350 Stage arriving this week. Also from Amazon. So if it arrives in less than perfect shape, I can return it. The Acus 350 stage was $580 so hard to say no. I believe it's discontinued. And with the best price for a Schertler Roy (the gold standard IMHO) being $2088, a bit of risk is OK. Not like I could get one of my out-of-warranty Schertler's repaired.

There is certainly some flexibility afforded by not relying on music for a living. If I were a pro as you are, the math would, of course, be different.

[AuntieDiluvian]

Originally Posted by TheSaint

With the huge improvement in modelling technology in recent years the days of gigging musicians using dedicated amps is surely numbered.

Yes, there's something about playing through an amp that can't easily be explained, but for sheer convenience you can't beat it.

True, and something like the Kemper gets pretty darned close to an actual amp sound. It's also important to remember that what the audience hears on larger gigs isn't the amp itself, but the mic'd amp being reproduced through the PA (unless you are playing way too loud).

Personally, I have gone to a hybrid system, with my Bogner as the amp, playing into a Two Rock Torpedo Live digital cabinet simulator, then feeding a small mixer to a couple of powered monitor cabinets. Total volume control, and the signal the FOH guy gets is exactly what I send, no mic involved.

As players, we all strive for the best possible sound at home so that our gig is appreciated more. But the reality is that almost no one in the audience will notice or care whether our sound is only 90% as good as WE know it could be.

I slightly disagree. The audience can discern good sound from bad - Eddie Van Halen couldn't show up and play his set through a JC120 without people knowing that something is not right. 95% of them will have no idea what is wrong nor why it sounds bad, but they will not enjoy it.

No, the audience doesn't know or care whether you use a Boss stompbox or a hand-wired original Plexi - but the difference DOES matter to their perception of your overall sound, and it is part of a performer's job to get those details right.

[Spook]

Rockabilly: Jeez.. hate it when you're right (smiles).

The Acus 350 arrived from Amazon not working. Lights came on but no sound from any input. Couldn't hear the power amp come on at the speakers. Dead parrot. Contacted Asus support. Support was slow and useless. Sent the unit back to Amazon.