Taylor V Bracing

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by MrYelnats

Hmmm...Sweetwater shows a D28 in stock at 4 lbs 10 oz no electronics, and a 717e with electronics at 4 lbs 13 oz. Sounds like both are tanks

Yeah, the d28 standard on sweetwater now say 4lb 6oz; point being it weighs less than the 717 yet has a significantly bigger body. It’s not Martins lightest built guitar. I’m just trying to illustrate a point that the smaller guitar weighs more. It feels like a brick in your lap. Just my impression.

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by tokairic

There is a video where Andy explains this. Watch it.

Yes I've watched this video and many others. Even though the V braces are thick they run with the grain, not doing much to stop tops splitting, just bracing the string tension. There are fewer small braces running across the grain than X braced guitars. Also in the video Andy says V bracing improves intonation - I can't see that myself, perhaps it cures the common cold also. The way Andy Powers presents the Taylor videos you would think there was something mystical going on - good grief, its only wood and wire.
Don't get me wrong - I like Taylor guitars but I wonder if the V bracing is a structural backward step, in spite of the tonal benefits.
If you read the acoustic guitar history of Martin and Gibson you will see that with longitudinal bracing (like V brace) they suffered many early guitar structural failures and X bracing was developed to prevent returns to the factory and improve durability.
Hence my OP.

Sure they run with the grain, but at a pretty significant angle. I’m pretty sure that with modern knowledge and technology, Taylor knows a little bit more about Bracing than the average guitar player.

Anyways, everyone hears things differently and enjoys what they like. I got a great 717 that out muscled and outperformed my D-18. There are countless guitars of any brand that could outperform my 717. There is always a better guitar out there.

I was a massive hater of V Bracing from the get go, and all it took was one play of a Grand Performance to change my mind completely. I’ve seen first hand that what matters is the bond between you and the guitar, not the Bracing pattern.

[Ludere]

Originally Posted by Atomnimity

I have been looking at Taylors recently and just yesterday ran across this - one mans long personal opinion on the whole X - V bracing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ2CCdWMR0k&t=959s

yeah ... umm ... that cat’s all over the map and struggling to explain even the simplest concepts and failing miserably ... not exactly a confidence-inducing source of recommendation. couldn’t even hang long enough to watch the end - listening to him struggle was just too painful ...

of course, thats just my opinion.

...

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by Ludere

yeah ... umm ... that cat’s all over the map and struggling to explain even the simplest concepts and failing miserably ... not exactly a confidence-inducing source of recommendation. couldn’t even hang long enough to watch the end - listening to him struggle was just too painful ...

of course, thats just my opinion.

...

I wasn’t gonna say anything lol.

[Atomnimity]

Originally Posted by Ludere

yeah ... umm ... that cat’s all over the map and struggling to explain even the simplest concepts and failing miserably ... not exactly a confidence-inducing source of recommendation. couldn’t even hang long enough to watch the end - listening to him struggle was just too painful ...

of course, thats just my opinion.

...

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

I wasn’t gonna say anything lol.

I hear you! The idea was to get you guys to watch it and tell me what he was so agitated about.......

[vindibona1]

It took the guy in the video (below) 18 minutes to get to the heart of it (which is where I've started the video) And he's almost nailed it. He just missed one important thing...

If you're able to hear well and pay attention, not all fundamentals and overtones are precisely in tune with each other. While they will be in tune at the string vibration level simply because of the math and there are few if any extra obstacles from perfect string intonation to occur- the bodies on the guitar do not have the properties to resonate all of the frequencies. It is similar to the singer who can sing in tune but whose voice is neither resonant nor particularly nice sounding. The frequency of the note and the musical vehicle's ability to resonate well in those frequencies are a mis-match, in varying degrees. As you'll notice some people have incredibly resonant voices while some have partial resonance and some just can't resonate with the accepted musical notes/tones at all. Guitars are all blessed with having much more similar resonant properties from guitar to guitar than humans do from voice to voice.

As I stated, guitars are very similar to each other, yet quite different even from unit to unit within the same brand and model. . Every piece of wood has it's inherent tonal properties. Some properties resonate certain frequencies, other properties REJECT them. Putting bracing on the guitar tops attempts to reinforce the tops from the amount of tension and pressure they are put under and at the same time allow them to amplify frequencies. What guitar builders have discovered is that they can manipulate the bracing to allow the guitar tops to better match a wider range of frequencies in it's vibration. Ideally it will reduce the out of tune overtones which are generally subdued anyway as the guitar top (and body) rejects them. What Richard in the video is saying is that Taylor is "stripping away" the frequencies with V- bracing.

I think tonally, what has set Taylor apart is their ablility to get more overtone frequencies preciserly in tune, generating more resultant harmonics and thus creating guitar that have a more inherent brightness compared to most competitors. But as far as V bracing is concerened, I'm more in the camp that they took a step too far and while they did release the tops to resonate more with the overtones that the strings produce through the v-brace design, they lost a lot of the bass fundamental; the condition being exacerbated by additional volume in the overtones and harmonics. In other words, the did find a way to make the bodies more in tune with string harmonics, but those harmonics created a tonal imbalance by natrually increasing the volume of the upper frequencies, and at the same time the bracing seems to have simultaneously reduced the volume of the lower fundamentals. Thus the increase in volume of the upper frequencies, now aligned an in tune and vibrating sympatheically are combined with a slight loss of bass fundamental, making the bass sound less present comparatively. The way that Richard (in the video) is looking at it is that Taylor "stripped away some frequencies" to get the "improved intonation". As I explained, I believe that while the PREVALENCE of some tones has diminished, I wouldn't classify it as them having "stripped away" frequency or tone.

Ok... I'll take a breath now. Hope that makes sense. Sorry for the length.

[gmel555]

I'll step aside the questions of volume, tone, bass, etc. and just comment on the original question re durability. Taylor is pretty much "betting the farm" on V Bracing, they must be supremely confident in its reliability/durability. With that said only time will really tell.

[frankmcr]

Oh, did Taylor change their bracing pattern?

[SKYHIGH]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Oh, did Taylor change their bracing pattern....AGAIN?

Here, I fixed it for you.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by gmel555

I'll step aside the questions of volume, tone, bass, etc. and just comment on the original question re durability. Taylor is pretty much "betting the farm" on V Bracing, they must be supremely confident in its reliability/durability. With that said only time will really tell.

My logic tells me that any issues that arise will be repaired and the design will be modified. That's what Martin did years ago.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

My logic tells me that any issues that arise will be repaired and the design will be modified. That's what Martin did years ago.

They've probably already been addressing this. The first V-class guitars that I played when they first came out were terrible. I've since played a few that were actually pretty good. But I still think overall the X-braced guitars are better balanced, even if they don't have some of the advantages V-bracing brings. I have to wonder if the release of the GP models and their body shape are a much better match for V-bracing?

I wonder when Taylor is going to come up with the "New modified X brace" which will replace the V-brace in many models, just like Coca Cola backed away from the "New Coke" and reinstated the old Coke calling it "Coca Cola Classic" while they quickly dialed back the "New Coke" to extinction?

[Shades of Blue]

I think that V Bracing is pretty successful overall, and the only people that really care can be heard in forums around the net...

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue

I think that V Bracing is pretty successful overall, and the only people that really care can be heard in forums around the net...

Yes, people that care negatively, positively because they like the direction that Taylor is taking, and people that care positively about Taylor as a company in the sense that they feel they are taking things in a not so great direction. Does that about sum up what you meant ;-)

Tis true...A lot of passion out there over this stuff

[jdrnd]

Originally Posted by Atomnimity

I have been looking at Taylors recently and just yesterday ran across this - one mans long personal opinion on the whole X - V bracing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ2CCdWMR0k&t=959s

vs

this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zARAPPAYI-Y

I thought intonation meant that the guitar was in tune up and down the fret board. ….not as the speaker on the first video said that the note is purer with less overtones

[nitram]

As a miserable Gibson owner(?) it's fun to see the Martin and Taylor camps take a chunk out of someone else.