The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 04-08-2019, 09:34 AM
B. Adams B. Adams is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Vermillion, SD
Posts: 437
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by H165 View Post
I use a limiter. I haven't had much success with compressors due to the "breathing" effect. Boosting quiet sounds and background noise can get messy real fast.
A limiter is just a really high ratio compressor with a fast attack.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-08-2019, 11:18 AM
Monsoon1 Monsoon1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 1,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Adams View Post
A limiter is just a really high ratio compressor with a fast attack.
I was under the impression that a compressor alters the dynamic range of the entire signal, and a limiter only alters the loudest peaks, but otherwise leaves the dynamic range intact.
__________________
Something something, beer is good, and people are crazy.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-08-2019, 01:34 PM
B. Adams B. Adams is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Vermillion, SD
Posts: 437
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon1 View Post
I was under the impression that a compressor alters the dynamic range of the entire signal, and a limiter only alters the loudest peaks, but otherwise leaves the dynamic range intact.
A compressor only alters the signal above where the threshold is set, which could potentially be the entire signal, but in practice it's typically only the louder stuff. A typical use would be a 3 or 4:1 ratio and dial the threshold back until it's rounding off the top a little, then maybe gain it up a few dB until it's back where it should be. In a live setting, I'm usually not seeing more than 8 to maybe 10dB of reduction on my meter at the most, unless it's something I really want to squash. I don't usually have to gain anything up more than 5-6dB, and oftentimes I don't add gain at all.

A limiter would be more like 10 or 20:1, or even higher, and typically set to reduce only the very highest peaks. I'd typically only use a limiter to prevent distortion/overmodulation/clipping, but recording guys sometimes use them on a mix.

In my opinion, a limiter is a very specialized and specific tool, but compressors are great for general use. I'm a live audio guy and I hardly ever use limiters, but I use compression all the time. Not on everything, but I can't think of a show I've done recently that I wasn't compressing around half of the inputs to some degree.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-08-2019, 02:14 PM
mischultz mischultz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 482
Default

I have a Maxon CP101 available as a boost/thickener for the fingers. I treat it as a way to match weight and volume with the strummed signal being the norm. If you’re compressing to pull the strummed information back, then the volume pedal’s probably the better option. Most pickups will have a narrower dynamic range than the instrument it supports. If you’re compressing output toward the top of the available spectrum that’s already being effectively compressed by the pickup, then it’s not necessarily headed toward a pretty outcome. I mention the Maxon because it’s relatively slow in its attack (the Greer is another) and tends toward preserving more transient information than some.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-08-2019, 02:15 PM
varmonter varmonter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: The heart of Saturday night..
Posts: 3,645
Default

doesnt a limiter kill anything above the threshold
thats set. where a compressor just cuts off the peaks?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-08-2019, 06:22 PM
mischultz mischultz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by varmonter View Post
doesnt a limiter kill anything above the threshold
thats set. where a compressor just cuts off the peaks?
Folks can use the term limiter a little broadly. Generally speaking, you’re looking at a 10:1 or higher ratio, short attack and a hard knee. At infinity:1, a limiter will behave as you describe: no amount of gain above the threshold is allowed to pass. The descriptor “brick wall” is, I think, a great visual aid.

As for their perceived behaviors, it depends a lot on how they’re used. You can go low threshold/low ratio and simply slow things down a bit. You can go high/high and round the peaks ever so slightly. Generally speaking, I’d tend to keep a high threshold on acoustic instruments and vary the tonal impact with the ratio and attack.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-08-2019, 07:44 PM
Monsoon1 Monsoon1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 1,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Adams View Post
A compressor only alters the signal above where the threshold is set, which could potentially be the entire signal, but in practice it's typically only the louder stuff. A typical use would be a 3 or 4:1 ratio and dial the threshold back until it's rounding off the top a little, then maybe gain it up a few dB until it's back where it should be. In a live setting, I'm usually not seeing more than 8 to maybe 10dB of reduction on my meter at the most, unless it's something I really want to squash. I don't usually have to gain anything up more than 5-6dB, and oftentimes I don't add gain at all.

A limiter would be more like 10 or 20:1, or even higher, and typically set to reduce only the very highest peaks. I'd typically only use a limiter to prevent distortion/overmodulation/clipping, but recording guys sometimes use them on a mix.

In my opinion, a limiter is a very specialized and specific tool, but compressors are great for general use. I'm a live audio guy and I hardly ever use limiters, but I use compression all the time. Not on everything, but I can't think of a show I've done recently that I wasn't compressing around half of the inputs to some degree.
My only experience was doing computer recording. And I seem to remember being able to observe the entire music signal being crunched. But then that could have just been an incorrect assumption on my part. I just recently reinstalled adobe audition on my pc. I'll have to see if I can make visual sense out of this.
__________________
Something something, beer is good, and people are crazy.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-09-2019, 02:48 AM
DriftwoodDan DriftwoodDan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 10
Default

I have used the K & K and find that the Fishman Aura is pretty handy and solves a lot of problems. It has compression (but that alone probably won't solve your problems) and a volume control (I find that useful when switching from picking to strumming). I also find that the imaging is very helpful and makes the K & K sound fantastic. It's one more thing to carry, one more thing to set up, and one more thing to keep an eye on, and I wish Fishman would just build it into an amp because it is a bit of a hassle when you are busking. That said, it will probably solve your problem plus it will make your guitar sound much better than what you get from the K & K by itself.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-09-2019, 03:22 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,423
Default

If you want to fit the picking loudness to the strumming loudness, a simple boost pedal (a simple EQ pedal with a volume control can be nice) is the right choice. Just set it to +3 to +6dB and use it only for your picking songs/parts.

BUT: If you use a piezo pickup, consider that a piezo works exponentially.

A mic or a magnetic pickup works linear:
double input = double output
while with a piezo that formula is:
double input = four times the output!

That is one of the reasons why a piezo sounds very spiky.
A compressor with a very low threshold and a ratio of 1:2 and a fast attack will even that out. Sometimes 1:1.5 is more than enough, that depents on the compressor unit (some do more than they show).

Thus, it makes sense to plug the guitar into the boost pedal first to even out the volume between picking and strumming and than into a compressor to even out that micro-dynamic misbehaviour of a piezo pickup.

I'm not completly sure if all piezos pickups behave in the same way regarding dynamics but I think so. Of course, if you have an internal preamp in your guitar it is possible that there is compression incuded already.

PS: here is a link where you can find some more info:
https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/t...gnetic-pickups
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-09-2019, 06:05 AM
mischultz mischultz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon1 View Post
My only experience was doing computer recording. And I seem to remember being able to observe the entire music signal being crunched. But then that could have just been an incorrect assumption on my part. I just recently reinstalled adobe audition on my pc. I'll have to see if I can make visual sense out of this.
They’re kindred spirits, and you’ll see a lot of devices tagged as compressor/limiter. If it helps, you can think of a limiter as a specialized expression (a square is a rectangle) of a compressor. Both have essentially the same mechanics, applying a negative impact on gain increase above a set input threshold. What you’re remembering is essentially correct, that a limiter’s going to have an immediate and obvious broad impact. Either the secret sauce or devastatingly unmusical, depending on who’s using the tool.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-12-2019, 04:31 AM
jazzguy jazzguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,390
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buc-a-Roo View Post
I highly recommend a compressor for use with an amplified acoustic guitar. Excellent control of dynamics with very good overall smoothing of the sound. Of course it does take some experimentation to dial in your particular wants with your particular instrument but the result is well worth the effort. I use just enough squash to hit the "smooth" level......never that pinched, squeezed tone often heard with electric setups.......just a nice warm smoothing of the sound. Wamplers' EGO is a very good one, as is the Keeley 4-Knob.......I prefer the Wampler.

Like everything else guitar, all is subjective......yes?

Agree with the above. Absolutely use a compressor (light) for acoustic. Every studio album you have heard of acoustic has compression....that's why you can hear every nuance. Many, many pro acoustic rigs will use compression too. If you want your audience to hear you, get a compressor. But experiment, too much will make it sound too flat and sterile. Get the best possible, cleanest, compressor you can get. When you get the sound like you like, it then you will be able to raise the overall volume slightly of your guitar. If playing in a band situation, a compressor is essential for an acoustic to be heard in the mix IMHO.
__________________
Taylor 512ce Urban Ironbark
Fender Special Edition Stratocaster
Eastman SB59
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-12-2019, 05:52 AM
vinnie1971 vinnie1971 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 70
Default

This is something I’ll be looking to do as o join an new acoustic band.
As a fingerstyle player I don’t use a pick for strumming so when I play electric guitar I ride the volume knob.
Acoustic guitar is more of challenge of Ergonomics - your standard onboard preamp might mean that’s not doable.
I also play with a rhythm guitarist who suffers with creeping volume ( he gets louder and louder until you hear nothing else) so I got a volume boost pedal to deal with that.

My iRig acoustic stage has a belt clip preamp which is even more awkward than the controls on the guitar.

I’m thinking volume pedal is the way, but I’ve yet to dry these active soundhole pickups with mic, transducer and control wheels - I think they’re going to well if the control wheels are accessible.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-12-2019, 08:25 AM
lkingston lkingston is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Asheville North Carolina
Posts: 3,232
Default Do I need a compressor pedal

I have two complaints with compressors on an acoustic guitar live:

1) They decrease your headroom before feedback.
2) They encourage you to play without paying attention to your dynamics.

Both of these are only the case if you overuse the effect, but I like so little compression on my instrument that on all but the largest gigs (where the soundman takes care of it) I don’t bother with it.

Plus, I think that playing without compression encourages you to really learn to control your dynamics with your picking.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-12-2019, 10:35 AM
cdkrugjr cdkrugjr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 631
Default

Especially when transparency is important, two very useful features are
  • Gain reduction indicator
  • Blend control

I usually set mine to barely flicker when I’m picking single notes, and clearly be “doing something” when strumming hard. Set attack so there’s no harsh transient

For “country puckin’” they set it so the compressor is engaged nearly all the time, which is pretty nasty on acoustic mostbof the time
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-18-2019, 01:59 AM
Thisisme Thisisme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DriftwoodDan View Post
I have used the K & K and find that the Fishman Aura is pretty handy and solves a lot of problems. It has compression (but that alone probably won't solve your problems) and a volume control (I find that useful when switching from picking to strumming). I also find that the imaging is very helpful and makes the K & K sound fantastic. It's one more thing to carry, one more thing to set up, and one more thing to keep an eye on, and I wish Fishman would just build it into an amp because it is a bit of a hassle when you are busking. That said, it will probably solve your problem plus it will make your guitar sound much better than what you get from the K & K by itself.
That sounds good. When you used the aura with the k&k where you playing through an acoustic amp?
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Tags
acoustic guitar, compressor

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=