Bridge pins

[donlyn]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

Rickenboom lives in The Netherlands. I'm guessing his first language is Dutch, not English, and I suspect he meant 'saddle'. I'm also guessing you realised that?

I had no problem understanding the phrase "TUSQ compensated bridge", as a saddle is just the part of a bridge that contacts the strings. The word 'compensated' was a dead giveaway as to its meaning. I have often heard that exact substitution of 'bridge' for 'saddle', that is, the whole for one of its parts, and taken meaning from context. In guitar-speak, I learned the word 'bridge' first and was of the impression that a 'saddle' was something put on a horse for riding. You know, as in 'boots and saddles', a bugle call to cavalry to mount up.

Don

[Bikewer]

It does seem logical that the only real effect that changing pins could have is to alter the mass of the vibrating top.
The string’s vibrating length, as Cybershot noted, is fixed between nut or fretted note and saddle. The string from saddle to bridge-plate does not vibrate.

So... You have the entire mass of the top... The top wood, the braces, the rosette, the bridge, the saddle... As compared to the mass of six pins.

Has anyone placed a group of pins on a precision scale to compare between bone, plastic, Tusq, brass, etc? I will wager that the difference between the first three is very small indeed. Brass might well be heavy enough to cause an effect.
As I mentioned in almost the exact same thread a couple of years ago, has anyone in the guitar industry or building community tried to do actual scientific testing? Using precision wave-form measuring devices or something similar?

Our ears are not, in most cases, all that reliable. There is expectation bias, for instance. Do we really remember what the instrument sounded like with say, plastic pins as opposed to the bone ones we just put in?

[Bax Burgess]

Just the weight on my palm, bone has more heft to it than airy light plastic and tusq.

[ripdotcom]

I have used bone, rosewood (brazillian too), even those walrus ivory ones by colosi. I have found that Ebony pins are perhaps the best investment anyone could make (next to a new set of strings). Slotted and fitted are better, slotted bridge with unslotted ebony pins is best.

[Alan Carruth]

It doesn't take a very precise scale to see the difference between pins. I put some on my trusty triple-beam balance a while back and got:
plastic 3 grams/set
ebony 5 "
bone 8.5 "
brass 26 "
'Power pins' 31 "
Naturally those were just the ones I happened to have on hand; YMMV.

Several years ago one of my students got a bit carried away carving her bridge, and it ended up lighter than I usually use on a steel string. Since she didn't have time to make another we used it. The tone was 'too bright' for her, so we added some weight, in the form of poster adhesive, until the the tone was more to her liking. It took two grams of added weight; the difference between plastic and ebony pins.

I don't see how the hardness of the pins can affect the sound. In my understanding of the way the guitar works the pins are not part of the signal path, but are, rather, toggles to hold the strings in. If the string is vibrating behind the saddle it seems to me that you have a problem. It is, of course, possible that some of the twice-per-cycle tension change of the the string is making it past the saddle, but I can't see how even that would alter the tone appreciably. I'd love to see some measurements of the actual forces beween the bridge and the plate.

Everyboody knows, of course, that expensive/rare pins sound better than plain ones. After all, you just spent a lot of money on them, so they must sound good! This is an aspect of 'hearing with the eyes', which sometimes seem to hear much better then the ears....

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

It does seem logical that the only real effect that changing pins could have is to alter the mass of the vibrating top.
The string’s vibrating length, as Cybershot noted, is fixed between nut or fretted note and saddle. The string from saddle to bridge-plate does not vibrate.

As I mentioned in almost the exact same thread a couple of years ago, has anyone in the guitar industry or building community tried to do actual scientific testing? Using precision wave-form measuring devices or something similar?

Our ears are not, in most cases, all that reliable. There is expectation bias, for instance. Do we really remember what the instrument sounded like with say, plastic pins as opposed to the bone ones we just put in?

A couple things...

Scientific testing, while providing a guide for continuity from the standpoint of the psychological effect of sound is almost useless. There are too many complexitites involved that are linked that would be very difficult to measure. Our ears are not reliable from one standpoint, but from another standpoint the only thing we CAN rely on. And while the human suffers from "psycho-sensory adaptation" and often, if not usually has perception skewed by what sounds they were exposed to prior to listening to current sounds, one can still hear and perceive balance and harmonics in context.

But no, different bridge pin materials do not alter the mass of the vibrating top as much as they transmit vibrations through variations in the pins' densities. Understanding how different pin materials affect vibrations and overtones can greatly help in balancing the sound in a guitar.

Each set of strings may have different sonic anomalies when coupled with a given guitar. How many times have we heard the sound of one string in a set standing out more than the others? Do we have the ability to change it? Can we balance or EQ the sound in an acoustic guitar? YES! Bridge pins can do that.

Different materials of bridge pins have different sonic properties, mostly affecting overtones, their projection and their decay/sustain. Buffalo horn will have more articulation, overtone and sustain than most materials. Ebony will sound lush and warm. African Blackwood will tamp down excess highs. Bone is similar to ebony, but not as warm. Not only that, individual pins can be altered for more minute sonic properties. Not only that- YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THE SAME PINS ALL THE WAY ACROSS.

I've tried many different "sets" of pins. But when I listened to how each string contributed to the sound of the instrument, through trial and error I was able to determine what seemed to work best for best balance, overtones and overall gestalt of sound.

Below, first find the pin configuration of my Taylor 614ce. You will note that there three two-pin pairs. Each enhances the role of their corresponding strings. IMO this configuration provides the best sound this guitar can offer when paired with Elixir nano strings. I've also found that different string sets on my 814ceDLX sound best with different pin configurations. Mix-and-match pin sets are not for the impatient, or string-change-resistant humans. It's taken time and a lot of experimentation to learn.

To cut to the chase... YES, bridge pins can make a significant difference. And while I doubt that few if any will go to the extent that I have to collect and test different pin materials, I thought it important to let people know that there are possibilities beyond the "norm".

P.S.... I've also included shot of various pin configurations I've tested with my 814.

[MGSRobinson]

I once hosted a clinic for Dana Bourgeois. Someone asked about bridge pins affecting the sound. His response was to strum a guitar with the bridge pins in, then he removed them and did it again.

“I don’t hear a difference, do you?” He asked.

His extensive experience and great writing on tone inclines me to side with him on this matter.

I don’t hear a difference, but it’s cool with me me if you do. We live in a subjective universe.

[vindibona1]

While I accept that perception is "moveable" due to immediately preceding aural exposure, at some point you know your instruments enough that even if you can't HEAR qualitative differences you can possibly feel them. That's what I experienced just today.

One of my forum contacts just sent me a set of custom pins; bone with brass inserts. I decided to test the entire set in my '81 MIJ Epiphone (think D28) which had buffalo horn pins with 1 week old Martin MSP4100 strings.

I strummed it a bit before changing the pins and then after the change noticed that the sound was noticeably warmer and louder. As expected the sound also lost a bit of articulation as buffalo pins tend to enhance that aspect. But from a feel standpoing, I felt noticeably more movement/vibration on the back of the guitar against my stomach. That seems to have confirmed my perception of increased loudness.

So here's the thing... With these pins I would have to change to strings that would be more articulate to take advantage of the properties of the pins. And I think that is an important take-away: That strings an pins are sonically intertwined and of course in the conjunction with the harmonic properties of the guitar. And so I'm thinking that I might want to test a set of D'Addario Nickel Bronze which I believe have articulate properties and might be a good match. I'm sure it all has to do with material density and ability to transmit vibrations. When dropped on the desktop these pins seemed extremely lively and had a nice ring to them. I have another custom set of boxwood with hollow tubes which are lighter and less lively waiting to be tested soon.

So while some would say different pins don't make a difference, it only doesn't make a difference to those who cannot hear the difference. To me the difference is as apparent as a bowling ball falling on my toe.

[Alan Carruth]

vindibona1 wrote:
"But no, different bridge pin materials do not alter the mass of the vibrating top as much as they transmit vibrations through variations in the pins' densities."

Please point me to the data showing the vibration forces in the strings behind the saddle.

[canyongargon]

My experience with bridge pins is that most of the time changes can be “felt” more than heard, in terms of the way the guitar feels vibrating in your hands, subtle changes in the sustain profile of the notes, etc, the vast majority of which I attribute to the difference in mass between different sets of pins. I like to compare it to playing an electric through an amp. We love to fiddle with the gain and EQ controls in very small increments once we get the tone about where we want it, trying to dial in the “feel” of the amp in ways that may not be drastically apparent to a listener.

[redir]

If you chuck a bridge pin up in a drill you can use it like a lathe with a piece of sand paper to thin it out if it's too fat

[Wade Hampton]

This bears repeating:

Originally Posted by MGSRobinson

I once hosted a clinic for Dana Bourgeois. Someone asked about bridge pins affecting the sound. His response was to strum a guitar with the bridge pins in, then he removed them and did it again.

“I don’t hear a difference, do you?” He asked.

His extensive experience and great writing on tone inclines me to side with him on this matter.

I don’t hear a difference, but it’s cool with me me if you do. We live in a subjective universe.

Thanks for posting.


whm

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by MGSRobinson

I once hosted a clinic for Dana Bourgeois. Someone asked about bridge pins affecting the sound. His response was to strum a guitar with the bridge pins in, then he removed them and did it again.

“I don’t hear a difference, do you?” He asked.

His extensive experience and great writing on tone inclines me to side with him on this matter.

I don’t hear a difference, but it’s cool with me me if you do. We live in a subjective universe.

This anecdote strains credibility. As a test, I just pulled the bridge pin on the high E string on one of my guitars without loosening the string. Sure enough, the string popped right out of the hole. So how was Dana Bourgeois able to strum a guitar without bridge pins and get a sound anything like how it sounded with the pins in? Were these magic strings?

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by bufflehead

This anecdote strains credibility. As a test, I just pulled the bridge pin on the high E string on one of my guitars without loosening the string. Sure enough, the string popped right out of the hole. So how was Dana Bourgeois able to strum a guitar without bridge pins and get a sound anything like how it sounded with the pins in? Were these magic strings?

When the pin holes in the bridge are brand new, if everything was drilled properly strings should stay put when the strings are removed. That's the ideal. Later, as the years pass and the guitar gets used, wear on the bridgeplate can cause the ball ends of the strings to pop loose.

I wouldn't go pulling the pins out like Mr. Bourgeois did on a regular basis, but on relatively new guitars it works. I remember about a year and a half after I got my baritone guitar from Roy McAlister I took it to a music party at a Santa Rosa home during the Healdsburg Guitar Festival. Roy had a tendency to make the bridge pin holes a bit oversized, and I was in the middle of playing a song with a bunch of other people when a couple of the ebony bridge pins fell out of the bridge and hit the patio, bouncing off the tile as they fell.

Not only did none of the strings pop out, but the guitar stayed completely in tune.

So there wasn't any magic involved with Mr. Bourgeois's demonstration. I inadvertently did the same thing that August day in Santa Rosa!


Wade Hampton Miller

PS: The baritone guitar did, in fact, sound exactly the same with the pins in or out.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

vindibona1 wrote:
"But no, different bridge pin materials do not alter the mass of the vibrating top as much as they transmit vibrations through variations in the pins' densities."

Please point me to the data showing the vibration forces in the strings behind the saddle.

I don't need to show you data. I know what I hear. I trust my ears more than I trust "data". You can believe me or not. But here's something for you to try if you dare... Place your finger on any string behind the saddle and before the pins. Pluck the strings. You feel vibrations? Si o no? I don't know about you but when I do it I feel significant vibrations... and I hear significant differences with different bridge pins.

Alan- I've spent years studying this stuff, starting with the overtones that different trumpet mouthpieces produce with various trumpets. I've been involved in cryogenic studies with double blind tests. I don't need a machine to tell me what I hear and what I don't.