Dual source issue with M80 and K&K

jacf · #1 12-12-2019, 12:14 PM

Hi folks,

Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this. I recently fitted a Baggs M80 to my Collings along with the K&K Pure Mini that was previously installed. I had the M80 fitted to the tip, with the K&K on the ring, on the basis that in most live settings I'd probably just run the M80 with a standard jack. However, now I've just been trying them out and have noticed that the signal from the M80 is low and also sounds quite distorted.

I also noticed that the battery seems to have lost a lot of its power - it was new when I had the pickup fitted a few days ago and plugging into it today for the first time, it's already down to three lights on the battery level warning. My experience is that batteries in these things last for months.

Could both issues be related? I realise I'll need to take it back to the tech, but just wondered if anyone had experienced anything similar before.

Cheers,

jacf

Brent Hahn · #2 12-12-2019, 02:08 PM

Those split tip/ring situations always seem like genius in theory, but there's always a "but." You need a special breakout cable. And sound people at venues have trouble figuring them out.

As inelegant as it is, I'd probably just run one of them out of the sound hole. I think I'd choose that over drilling a second hole.

And yes, the M80 battery should last months if not a couple years if you're careful about unplugging it when you're not using it. There must be something about your wiring scheme that's draining it.

jacf · #3 12-12-2019, 02:15 PM

Thanks for the reply Brent. I hear what you're saying there. I'm currently using a TRS cable with a dual mono splitter. The K&K on the ring seems fine. I'll take it back to the tech but if it's looking too difficult, I'll just disconnect the K&K. I think the M80 is more useable for what I need. If I sell the guitar - not currently inn my plans as it's a stunning Addi-topped Collings C10 Deluxe that I adore - I'll get the K&K reconnected and take out the M80. But it will be a shame not to have the option to mix them if it was possible. I've a great tech and if it can be done I'm sure he'll find a workaround.

But if anyone already has a workaround...

ljguitar · #4 12-12-2019, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacf

Hi folks,

Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this. I recently fitted a Baggs M80 to my Collings along with the K&K Pure Mini that was previously installed. I had the M80 fitted to the tip, with the K&K on the ring, on the basis that in most live settings I'd probably just run the M80 with a standard jack. However, now I've just been trying them out and have noticed that the signal from the M80 is low and also sounds quite distorted.

I also noticed that the battery seems to have lost a lot of its power - it was new when I had the pickup fitted a few days ago and plugging into it today for the first time, it's already down to three lights on the battery level warning. My experience is that batteries in these things last for months.

Could both issues be related? I realise I'll need to take it back to the tech, but just wondered if anyone had experienced anything similar before.

Cheers,

jacf

Hi jacf

Since you are using a ¼" TRS to dual mono splitter cable (Stereo to dual mono out) to connect guitar to amp, I've seen an issue with TRS to individual mono splitters causing issues when splitting with a "Y" out of the output jack. It turned out to be the preamp being plugged into from the splitter rather than the output jack on the guitar.

If you leave the TRS to dual mono splitter plugged into the jack when the guitar is not being played, it may keep the battery active in the M80 and run the battery down as well. The plug usually activates the on/off circuit of the battery in the pickup.

And if there's phantom power turned on back somewhere where it's getting to the guitar that could cause issues too.

Where are you taking your 'mono' feeds (individual signals) from each mono cable after they exit the splitter? Into a preamp, an amp, or directly into a sound board or Direct Box?

jacf · #5 12-12-2019, 03:41 PM

Larry, you might have nailed it. I tried it into a DAW and also into a Acus 8. But the K&K was going through a phantom powered Orchid preamp. I was assuming because the K&K was sounding fine it wouldn’t be an issue with the preamp. I’ll investigate as soon as possible, probably remove the preamp and the phantom power and see if that helps. I’ll check and see if that’s a factor on causing the battery drain too.

Very helpful.

jacf · #6 12-12-2019, 04:08 PM

Initial investigations suggesting the phantom power might be the issue. Further investigations tomorrow. Thanks again.

Jack Orion · #7 12-12-2019, 05:04 PM

I don't think you can combine an active and a passive pickup on a regular TRS jack if the passive pickup relies on the ring tip to complete the circuit and turn the battery on as, I believe the M80 does.

Wiring the K&K to the ring means that the battery is basically always on in your guitar, hence the battery drain.

I think you'll either have to run the m80 in passive mode or get a fishman powerjack which has a separate tab for switching on the battery...

dcopper · #8 12-12-2019, 06:42 PM

I have the exact setup, but have the M80 on the tip so you need a TRS able to access it. I have never had a problem and my M80 has been in the guitar for several years with the original battery. I access my K&K more so it is easier to use it so I can just use a regular TS guitar cable to access the K&K.

Somehow I think your install has activated your M80 when it was wired and killing your battery.

jacf · #9 12-13-2019, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

I don't think you can combine an active and a passive pickup on a regular TRS jack if the passive pickup relies on the ring tip to complete the circuit and turn the battery on as, I believe the M80 does.

Wiring the K&K to the ring means that the battery is basically always on in your guitar, hence the battery drain.

I think you'll either have to run the m80 in passive mode or get a fishman powerjack which has a separate tab for switching on the battery...

Thanks Jack, I don't think I'd go down the powejack route. If I can't get it to work, I suspect I'll just disconnect the K&K. That would be a shame, but needs must and all that.

jacf · #10 12-13-2019, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcopper

I have the exact setup, but have the M80 on the tip so you need a TRS able to access it. I have never had a problem and my M80 has been in the guitar for several years with the original battery. I access my K&K more so it is easier to use it so I can just use a regular TS guitar cable to access the K&K.

Somehow I think your install has activated your M80 when it was wired and killing your battery.

Thanks dcopper, you're giving me a small window of hope with this.

I'll look look into it some more but I know I'd prefer to have the M80 as the default mono option, so if all else fails, I'll reluctantly have to disconnect the K&K.

jacf · #11 12-15-2019, 03:26 PM

Seems to be a lot less complicated. It looks like an issue with the battery connector. Taking the battery out and putting it back seems to fix the problem for a while at least. Hopefully it will settle down.

dcopper · #12 12-16-2019, 02:45 PM

You could also switch your M80 to passive mode - you won’t have volume control any longer but it is a good passive pickup as well as active pickup.

jacf · #13 12-17-2019, 04:16 AM

Thanks dcopper. I shifted the M80 over to my J45 and tried running on the standard single source LR Baggs that I had for the M1a on that guitar but it's still distorting pretty badly intermittently when I use it in active mode, so running it in passive mode seems to be my only option.

varmonter · #14 12-22-2019, 08:08 AM

having the kk i would think might
trigger the m80 to think its plugged in.
Did you try this rig wiui the the m80
in passive mode..distortion sounds like
gain staging to me.. is there a level meter in your chain anywhere..?
i agree the m80 is a much more usable pickup. i have the same setup
in my guitar and have not yet tried to use it ss a dual source..the m80 is that good.

Brent Hahn · #15 12-22-2019, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varmonter

i agree the m80 is a much more usable pickup. i have the same setup
in my guitar and have not yet tried to use it ss a dual source..the m80 is that good.

One caution before you buy an M80 thinking it's infallible -- they're pretty sensitive to physical "shock." They're meant to be extra sensitive to things like "musical whacking" on the guitar body, as many folks are wont to do these days, and they're great in that respect. The tradeoff being that they're also sensitive to physical things you'd prefer not to be heard. Like that shirt-cuff button, or in my case the point of the pick. I've had to learn how to be a lot more careful in that respect than used to be the case, and I've also had to shove the pickup as far forward in the sound hole as it will go to get it out of the way of my picking hand. The Baggs M1 is a lot more forgiving in that respect, and when the next windfall comes I'll probably switch.