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  #91  
Old 10-28-2017, 07:08 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
He's definitely doing a hammer on and pull off. I just looked up a quick live video. This is the intro, but in the studio version, the intro is almost note for note the same as the outro. (the rhythm he uses while playing it in the video is different and actually exactly how some of these transcriptions have it written, coincidently)



THIS! The last three notes are played in quick succession. 1 2 3! The note before is longer. I'm compulsive enough that I'd prefer to have it notated this way, but I'm not knowledgable enough to do it myself (although I'm pretty sure it's just as simple as changing note values and a monkey could do it). PLEASE post that sound clip tomorrow. I think this is the last revision I need to make. But I'm pretty sure I'll be using that first example you posted above.



I'll definitely post pictures when I get it. I'll probably wait for it to heal first so it looks good.

Long story: the artist wants to basically use what I have drawn and transfer THAT to my arm for the tattoo and stylize it as he goes. I just assumed he would REDRAW the entire thing using the examples I gave him, but he was reluctant to do this (maybe because he doesn't actually read/write music). I don't know that I'm excited about this idea, so I've been trying to figure out how to stylize and draw the tattoo myself. Drawing these little lines in a calligraphic style with a thin sharpie or even a pen is almost impossible. I actually tried using a flex tip fountain pen that I specifically bought for calligraphy, but the pen, as well as my technique is still insufficient.

I'm gonna give photoshop a try and a friend of mine has a touchscreen Chromebook and stylus that you can get some pretty nice pen strokes out of. Hopefully I work something out.

Edit: I'm actually eying some of these graphic tablets that you use with Photoshop. I can get a cheap one for $20. A mid quality one for $80... Hmmmmm
Did you know you can get scoring templates? They are like a plastic protractor with stencils cut into them in the shape of musical symbols that you can just trace. Before scoring software, these were commonly used by composers and music students everywhere. Google “composer templates.”

Also, Finale and Sibelius have lots of different fonts and styles. You have Sibelius right? You could mess around with some different fonts and document styles in Sibelius and see if you can find something that at least looks hand written something like what you have in mind.

Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 10-28-2017 at 07:22 PM.
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  #92  
Old 10-28-2017, 07:36 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post

THIS! The last three notes are played in quick succession. 1 2 3! The note before is longer. I'm compulsive enough that I'd prefer to have it notated this way, but I'm not knowledgable enough to do it myself (although I'm pretty sure it's just as simple as changing note values and a monkey could do it). PLEASE post that sound clip tomorrow. I think this is the last revision I need to make. But I'm pretty sure I'll be using that first example you posted above.
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Except it's not equal triplets. The first of those middle three is longer than the other two.
I mean, that sounds good (as do all the other alternatives), and looks neat, but it's not how it's played.
Um, if you're referring to the example posted in this specific post, the text was Jon's, but the musical example is my suggestion -- the 32nd-note triplet I've been going on about.

There's already a sound-clip of it, check my posts above.

Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 10-28-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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  #93  
Old 10-29-2017, 01:35 AM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
Did you know you can get scoring templates? They are like a plastic protractor with stencils cut into them in the shape of musical symbols that you can just trace. Before scoring software, these were commonly used by composers and music students everywhere. Google “composer templates.”

Also, Finale and Sibelius have lots of different fonts and styles. You have Sibelius right? You could mess around with some different fonts and document styles in Sibelius and see if you can find something that at least looks hand written something like what you have in mind.
I’ve looked at some of the fonts, but there’s really no substitute for handwriting. I want the imperfections and freehand look you can’t get from fonts or stencils.

I ordered a Wacom graphic tablet last night for $80 and I’ve just contacted someone on Etsy who does custom calligraphy work for wedding invitations, etc. I’m not sure if they’d do music, but I guess I’ll find out.

It might seem like I’m going to great lengths, but this IS permanent (more or less). The finished product will be worth all of this effort to me. Honestly, I take comfort knowing how many of you guys have contributed to this. This tattoo actually has even more meaning now. If I could have someone handwrite it with calligraphy as well, it would be a piece of art on multiple levels.

Last edited by mistertomlinson; 10-29-2017 at 03:16 AM.
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  #94  
Old 10-29-2017, 04:24 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Here's the samples I mentioned in my last post. The image shows two versions of the disputed bar (bar 3 below). As I said before, I think the second one is closest to the original, but the first is probably good enough.

The sound clip (Sibelius's sound samples) plays through the notation twice (the midi following the repeat instruction shown), so you hear versions 1-2-1-2 in that order.

Obviously you only need one of these lines - your choice!. Notice the repeat saves a bar by looping the last bar back to the first, but you can add that final bar to the beginning (less the first high E) if you think it needs an additional intro bar.

Design-wise, note the slopes of the beams. Try to preserve these angles (not too extreme) when handwriting. (Oh, I left off the "repeat and fade"

Good luck with the calligrapher! Give them one of these print-outs to show the thick-thin lines. (A music engraver would be the ideal person, of course, but a calligrapher should be OK. The whole style of printed music engraving is derived from quills and flat pen nibs!)


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Last edited by JonPR; 10-29-2017 at 04:36 AM.
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  #95  
Old 10-29-2017, 03:03 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Here's the samples I mentioned in my last post. The image shows two versions of the disputed bar (bar 3 below). As I said before, I think the second one is closest to the original, but the first is probably good enough.

The sound clip (Sibelius's sound samples) plays through the notation twice (the midi following the repeat instruction shown), so you hear versions 1-2-1-2 in that order.

Obviously you only need one of these lines - your choice!. Notice the repeat saves a bar by looping the last bar back to the first, but you can add that final bar to the beginning (less the first high E) if you think it needs an additional intro bar.

Design-wise, note the slopes of the beams. Try to preserve these angles (not too extreme) when handwriting. (Oh, I left off the "repeat and fade"

Good luck with the calligrapher! Give them one of these print-outs to show the thick-thin lines. (A music engraver would be the ideal person, of course, but a calligrapher should be OK. The whole style of printed music engraving is derived from quills and flat pen nibs!)


The first example appears to be a kind of mordent -- but not a standard mordent. Only a Baroque-music specialist would know how to interpret the symbol.

So, if you like the slightly offset rhythm (as opposed to the straight triplet ornament), then example one, as written, is certainly the easiest to read (don't like the triplet grouping with the 32nd note, confusing.)

My vote is for Example 1.

Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 10-29-2017 at 04:28 PM.
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  #96  
Old 10-29-2017, 04:27 PM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Here's the samples I mentioned in my last post. The image shows two versions of the disputed bar (bar 3 below). As I said before, I think the second one is closest to the original, but the first is probably good enough.

The sound clip (Sibelius's sound samples) plays through the notation twice (the midi following the repeat instruction shown), so you hear versions 1-2-1-2 in that order.

Obviously you only need one of these lines - your choice!. Notice the repeat saves a bar by looping the last bar back to the first, but you can add that final bar to the beginning (less the first high E) if you think it needs an additional intro bar.

Design-wise, note the slopes of the beams. Try to preserve these angles (not too extreme) when handwriting. (Oh, I left off the "repeat and fade"

Good luck with the calligrapher! Give them one of these print-outs to show the thick-thin lines. (A music engraver would be the ideal person, of course, but a calligrapher should be OK. The whole style of printed music engraving is derived from quills and flat pen nibs!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
Both examples here appear to be mordents -- but not standard mordents. There are symbols for them, but only a Baroque-music specialist would know how to interpret them.

So, if you like the slightly offset rhythm (as opposed to the straight triplet ornament) example one, as written, is certainly the easiest to read (don't like the triplet grouping with the 32nd note, confusing.)

My vote is for Example 1.

Well crap. The second one sounds perfect to me, but I like the look of the first one. ONE question. I noticed the tie on the bass e in measure 3 and 4 connects the note heads instead of the stems. This is correct and acceptable? This would definitely save a little room on my arm. I would prefer this way of notating the tie instead of stem to stem like I had it notated.

Also, I'll use that corrected measure but I'm gonna keep my unnecessarily long version because I need those 7 measures to fill up my arm.

As for the calligrapher, I think I'll be going it alone. The Etsy seller I contacted told me they didn't do that sort of calligraphy work so I gave up on Etsy as all of the calligraphy listings are similar and I have a feeling no one wants to get into sheet music if they're advertising lettering. I don't think any of them are gonna feel comfortable doing it unless I got lucky and found someone who actually knew music.

I did find a woman online who does custom calligraphy jobs and WAS actually willing to do it, but quoted me $250. That would be worth it if I knew it would turn out how I wanted it to, so I asked her if she could offer some kind of partial guarantee where I pay her a percentage up front and only pay the full price after viewing a sample of the finished product. I'd hate to spend $250 on something I won't use. Alas, she required full payment up front.

So, plan C (because I still have that graphic tablet on the way): I ordered a couple of these Tomboy Fudenosuke brush pens that look excellent for calligraphy and much more forgiving than using a flex nib fountain pen. They're supposed to be great for beginners. I think this will be easier than using the graphic tablet.

I'll get the pens Tuesday and try to write up what I believe will be the final design. This time I'll try to ease up on those beam angles. I don't know why I keep slanting them so much.

Thank you guys for your continued help and patience.

Edit: I have to go with the second example. It's busier than I had hoped, but it clearly sounds accurate to me. It was most important to me that the music be represented as accurately as it could be.

Last edited by mistertomlinson; 10-29-2017 at 04:34 PM.
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  #97  
Old 10-29-2017, 05:13 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
Well crap. The second one sounds perfect to me, but I like the look of the first one. ONE question. I noticed the tie on the bass e in measure 3 and 4 connects the note heads instead of the stems. This is correct and acceptable? This would definitely save a little room on my arm. I would prefer this way of notating the tie instead of stem to stem like I had it notated.

Also, I'll use that corrected measure but I'm gonna keep my unnecessarily long version because I need those 7 measures to fill up my arm.

As for the calligrapher, I think I'll be going it alone. The Etsy seller I contacted told me they didn't do that sort of calligraphy work so I gave up on Etsy as all of the calligraphy listings are similar and I have a feeling no one wants to get into sheet music if they're advertising lettering. I don't think any of them are gonna feel comfortable doing it unless I got lucky and found someone who actually knew music.

I did find a woman online who does custom calligraphy jobs and WAS actually willing to do it, but quoted me $250. That would be worth it if I knew it would turn out how I wanted it to, so I asked her if she could offer some kind of partial guarantee where I pay her a percentage up front and only pay the full price after viewing a sample of the finished product. I'd hate to spend $250 on something I won't use. Alas, she required full payment up front.

So, plan C (because I still have that graphic tablet on the way): I ordered a couple of these Tomboy Fudenosuke brush pens that look excellent for calligraphy and much more forgiving than using a flex nib fountain pen. They're supposed to be great for beginners. I think this will be easier than using the graphic tablet.

I'll get the pens Tuesday and try to write up what I believe will be the final design. This time I'll try to ease up on those beam angles. I don't know why I keep slanting them so much.

Thank you guys for your continued help and patience.

Edit: I have to go with the second example. It's busier than I had hoped, but it clearly sounds accurate to me. It was most important to me that the music be represented as accurately as it could be.
I think doing it yourself is a great idea. Make it ART, dude. The score is beautiful...
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  #98  
Old 10-29-2017, 05:26 PM
mistertomlinson mistertomlinson is offline
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Just to reiterate my question and one additional question (I really think these will be the last questions I have).

1. Should that tie on the bottom of measures 3 and 4 be between the note heads or stems?

2. In the second example for measure 3 with the triplet and that 3 bracket, would I be able to move the slur under the note heads and leave the bracket above? That would kind of clean it up... but only if it's acceptable and accurate.
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  #99  
Old 10-29-2017, 05:42 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
Just to reiterate my question and one additional question (I really think these will be the last questions I have).

1. Should that tie on the bottom of measures 3 and 4 be between the note heads or stems?

2. In the second example for measure 3 with the triplet and that 3 bracket, would I be able to move the slur under the note heads and leave the bracket above? That would kind of clean it up... but only if it's acceptable and accurate.
Head to head. On Finale, that's the default, I didn't move or adjust the tie. I presume it's the same in Sibeleus.

Now we're getting into typesetting and layout. You have considerable freedom there. You can move stuff around to some extent, to fit in what you need to fit, or to fit everything into a limited space.

Moving the slur is no problem, IMO.
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  #100  
Old 10-29-2017, 08:37 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
Just to reiterate my question and one additional question (I really think these will be the last questions I have).

1. Should that tie on the bottom of measures 3 and 4 be between the note heads or stems?

2. In the second example for measure 3 with the triplet and that 3 bracket, would I be able to move the slur under the note heads and leave the bracket above? That would kind of clean it up... but only if it's acceptable and accurate.
Yes - notehead to notehead is the expected targets for a tie.

For the slur, you can move it to the notehead side if it feels better to you. That's perfectly acceptable.
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  #101  
Old 10-29-2017, 09:04 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
This time I'll try to ease up on those beam angles. I don't know why I keep slanting them so much.
The general rule of thumb for notation is that your stem should extend an octave. So, see how each stem seems to end where the next octave would be (B to B, G to G, etc). If you start there you'll get "legit" beams.

Of course, there are reasons to break the rule for readability...just look at the high Bs & Cs (1st & 2nd ledger lines above the staff). Those stems are shorter because they are beamed with notes much lower. It would produce overly angled beams that would feel awkward to the eye.

Notation is an art, so remember it comes down to making it look beautiful and readable. It should have a flow.

I'm sure this was all mentioned somewhere in the thread - Guitars Slim & JonPR seem to have the bases covered. I just wanted to point it out again so that you have a good starting place.

I don't think you need to worry too much...not like you need a copy of Gould's "Behind Bars" or anything...but just to help you get in the ballpark...then let your eyes help you fine tune. That's what every music notator does. Let the rules get you close then fine tune with your eyes.
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1988 Fender Fretless J Bass
1991 Washburn HB-35s
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1996 Taylor 422-R (Limited Edition)
1997 Taylor 810-WMB (Limited Edition)
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  #102  
Old 10-29-2017, 11:21 PM
Guitar Slim II Guitar Slim II is offline
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Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
The general rule of thumb for notation is that your stem should extend an octave. So, see how each stem seems to end where the next octave would be (B to B, G to G, etc). If you start there you'll get "legit" beams.

Of course, there are reasons to break the rule for readability...just look at the high Bs & Cs (1st & 2nd ledger lines above the staff). Those stems are shorter because they are beamed with notes much lower. It would produce overly angled beams that would feel awkward to the eye.

Notation is an art, so remember it comes down to making it look beautiful and readable. It should have a flow.

I'm sure this was all mentioned somewhere in the thread - Guitars Slim & JonPR seem to have the bases covered. I just wanted to point it out again so that you have a good starting place.

I don't think you need to worry too much...not like you need a copy of Gould's "Behind Bars" or anything...but just to help you get in the ballpark...then let your eyes help you fine tune. That's what every music notator does. Let the rules get you close then fine tune with your eyes.
Just for fun, if you want to see some old-time examples of the art, check out IMSLP.org. It's full of facsimiles and scans of classical-music scores printed in the 1800s. Everything from the full scores of Beethoven's symphonies, to, yes, lots of archaic old guitar scores.

Look up a couple of famous guitar composers like Fernando Sor, Mauro Giuliani, etc. and see what their work looked like a century ago, when it was first published -- and was still typeset using movable print!

Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 10-29-2017 at 11:26 PM.
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  #103  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:37 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
The first example appears to be a kind of mordent -- but not a standard mordent. Only a Baroque-music specialist would know how to interpret the symbol.
What symbol?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
So, if you like the slightly offset rhythm (as opposed to the straight triplet ornament), then example one, as written, is certainly the easiest to read (don't like the triplet grouping with the 32nd note, confusing.)

My vote is for Example 1.
Mine too. The second one sounds correct, but would be much harder to read and play accurately*. You'd end up with something like the first one, or just random grace notes.

*Let alone tattoo accurately!
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  #104  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:49 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
Well crap. The second one sounds perfect to me, but I like the look of the first one. ONE question. I noticed the tie on the bass e in measure 3 and 4 connects the note heads instead of the stems. This is correct and acceptable?
It's correct. Not just "acceptable"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
Also, I'll use that corrected measure but I'm gonna keep my unnecessarily long version because I need those 7 measures to fill up my arm.
. OK, why not have the repeats going all across your back? (They could fade by getting smaller and smaller down your spine, and disappear down... guess where )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II View Post
Edit: I have to go with the second example. It's busier than I had hoped, but it clearly sounds accurate to me. It was most important to me that the music be represented as accurately as it could be.
OK - your choice! You might want to bear in mind the point about playability. Not that (I guess) anyone is going to be playing your arm - - but sometimes notation can be over the top in aiming for rhythmic precision, when an easier (quicker) to read version would be good enough.
The advantage of the fancier version, of course, is just that it looks fancier! I'm no tattoo expert, but it strikes me that looking fancy is the whole point of a lot of them.

Good luck with the calligraphy, and make sure you study the print versions closely for proportions and thick/thin lines (on the time sigs as well as beams etc).
(I have done calligraphy myself in the past - I have a design/illustration degree - and I would charge less than that woman, but I think you should do it yourself. Take your time, get it right.
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  #105  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:07 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
1. Should that tie on the bottom of measures 3 and 4 be between the note heads or stems?
Just confirming - between the heads, as shown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistertomlinson View Post
2. In the second example for measure 3 with the triplet and that 3 bracket, would I be able to move the slur under the note heads and leave the bracket above? That would kind of clean it up... but only if it's acceptable and accurate.
Technically it should go above because there's two voices. Slurs and ties go up in the top voice, down in the lower voices.

In fact, I just checked my notation guide (pages and pages on slurs!), and when a slur is combined with a tuplet, the tuplet (the 3 and bracket) should go above the slur. I.e.,the other way round than Sibelius's default has it.

That would mean the slur would look like it does in the first version (angled up to avoid the staccato dot), while the "3" bracket would also need to be angled up to avoid the slur!

All in all - if you're using the version with the triplet - I think I'd go with putting the slur underneath - even if technically incorrect, I think it would look a little more elegant. Alternatively, the triplet bracket could go beneath, but I think that's probably more visually confusing against the stave - and probably harder for the tattooist. (More elegant still to use the version without the triplet, even if not precisely the way it sounds... )
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Last edited by JonPR; 10-30-2017 at 04:13 AM.
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