Low string height at nut

[rodmbds]

That's another great idea!

What I thought, initially, was that doing the nut first and measuring the gap at the 1st fret pressing the 3rd, is that I'd have no influence by the saddle height, as the string is being pressed at the 3rd fret.

Then, I'd do the saddle and not worry about the action changing at the nut.

Though not illogical, I find the methods you guys suggested here make more sense.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

It is possible to do the relief first, saddle next, and save the nut slots for last.

That's been my preference for the past three-plus decades, though the slots can be done first if one prefers.

For slot heights, I prefer to use stacked feeler gauges to act as a stop for slot depth, rather than string height above the first fret when the string is fretted at the third fret. Both work.

[rodmbds]

Great. How high do you set the stop mark?

[redir]

Why would anyone want nut slot heights any higher then the frets in front of them? Proper nut slot heights should be the exact same heights as the frets in front of them. For some players I'll get the low E and A strings a hair higher because they like to go Pete Townshend on the open E and A chords but that's just an exception.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by rodmbds

Great. How high do you set the stop mark?

The height of the first fret. Sometimes a few thousandths of an inch higher, graduated from E to e.

[Rodger Knox]

An old trick from Cumpiano was to cut a pencil in half and rest it on the frets while marking the nut. That works great for initial cutting, but is usually not of sufficient accuracy for final depth where the accuracy required is plus 0.002" to minus 0.000". That's difficult with a mark that's 0.01" wide.

[John Arnold]

IMHO, there is no good reason to do the saddle before the nut. None.
Nut slots should be the same as the fret plane. The only exception is the low E, which can back buzz when using a capo if that string is exactly at fret height at the nut. It only takes a few thousandths of an inch higher to eliminate that.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

An old trick from Cumpiano was to cut a pencil in half and rest it on the frets while marking the nut. That works great for initial cutting, but is usually not of sufficient accuracy for final depth where the accuracy required is plus 0.002" to minus 0.000". That's difficult with a mark that's 0.01" wide.

Agreed. A trick I was taught for roughing the nut slot depths was to nip the tang of the fret wire you use to allow the fret wire to be bent to 90 degrees at the cut. This creates an "L" shaped piece of fret wire. From one leg of the L, file off the entire tang, leaving only the crown. Place the tangless leg on the top of the fingerboard and trace along the top of the crown onto the in-place nut. That provides an approximation of the depth of the nut slots, similar to the half-pencil trick.

I use an old-style technical drafting pencil with 2 mm lead. With the standard lead sharpener, one can get nearly any thickness pencil line from literally hair thick to very wide and in a variety of lead hardnesses.

[redir]

I've been using the half pencil trick for 25 years. Once you get used to it you know how much further below the pencil line to go to rough it in real quick. But then I just eye ball the rest of the way using the string as a guide on the 3rd fret. When the strings on the first fret just barely touch the fret it's done. You can even get away with touching on the first two strings if some one wants it really low.

I never could use feeler gauges as so many others do. I tried, just can't do it.

[Tim Mullin]

Originally Posted by Tim Mullin

Now, there will be differences of opinion among luthiers. In fact, what I’ve written is not what I was originally taught! But, my first career was as a scientist, and I’ve given this a LOT of thought. Happy to argue the logic with any luthier out there. I know many well respected luthiers who follow this approach and logic 100% — just not all of them.

As I said in my earlier post, there will be differences of opinion among luthiers, and this thread proves it.
For many (including me) the sequence to a high-precision setup is either (a) nut slot depth (gap over the first fret when fretted between 2 and 3, with target 0.001-2”, i.e., only just barely greater than none), or (b) neck relief (with capo at 1st and fretted at body, with specification dependent on instrument, strings and playing style), the order of a and b doesn’t matter, and then finally saddle height based on gap above 12th fret in playing position, with no other strings fretted. This gap is affected by the nut slots and neck relief, which is why we measure and adjust it once as the final step (but before intonation). Like neck relief, the target 12th-fret string height is a function of instrument, strings, playing style and player preference.
One reason nut slots are often done first is that the work is hard on strings, so we often prefer it to be done before trashing the original strings. Neck relief and saddle height must obviously be set with the desired strings at pitch.
Other approaches mentioned in this thread persist and can come very close, but are lower precision and cannot reliably produce the same playability from one instrument to the next.
None of the approaches mentioned will produce a good result if the fret plane has other issues — high or worn frets, body hump, lack of 2-way truss rod adjustment, etc — and this is rather common; but those are outside the scope of this thread.
The one thing that ALL luthiers can agree on is that the setup of virtually ALL factory-made instruments can be improved!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Tim Mullin

Other approaches mentioned in this thread persist and can come very close, but are lower precision and cannot reliably produce the same playability from one instrument to the next.

And, what is the basis for your statement? What substantiating evidence can you provide that "proves" your absolute statement?

You may prefer the method you use, but that isn't substantiating evidence that other approaches are "lower precision..."

[brianhejh]

The suggested sequence IE-Set relief before the nut slotting depth.?

Would this not then make the first fret height ( higher) than the following 2/3 frets because these now have relief. (therefore the first three frets are no longer at the same height / level).

I thought, If one was to use a straight edge (type of tool) to find the exact level across the suggested frets in order to align with the bottom of the nut it would have to be done with the neck straight?

Or do you align the bottom of the nut with the first fret only therefore dismiss any relief in the following frets, most videos I see demonstrating this technique use a straight edge covering frets 2 and 3.

Just trying to understand.

Thanks Guys

Brian

[bnjp]

I go back and forth. I know this causes extra steps because I inevitably have to take the strings loose to get the saddle out, but I rough in the nut slots using a half pencil to mark the fret height, then capo and rough in the saddle, then perfect the nut slots by measuring off the first fret...then tweak the saddle if needed. Everybody has their own way I guess, but this works for me. I've tried the other methods, but like the way I do it.

[Rodger Knox]

The relief is insignificant between frets 1 and 3, so as long as your using a straightedge that doesn't span more than that, there is no difference. If your straightedge is 18" long, you need to get the fretboard flat. What I mean when I say the relief is insignificant in the measurement is relief at the 7th fret should be about 0.006" or less, the difference between the 1st and 3rd would be about 0.001" or less. That's insignificant in the measuring and marking, most people can't get that close strictly by measuring, it takes a little trial and adjustment, and having a good feel for what it should feel like doesn't hurt. It's not insignificant when you consider the tolerances for a well cut nut slot are about +0.002"/-0.000".

[mirwa]

We all do things differently, one thing I have learnt there is no "fact" this is the way it has to be done.

My sequence,

Cut the nut slot, I like a few thou to max 5 above the first fret.
Set the relief
Set the saddle height
Identify and tweak any high frets

Steve