Sampled a couple of Taylor V-Braced models yesterday...

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by LeftIsRight!

Exactly!

There are way too many conspiracy theories and drama around this new bracing. People do not like change for sure.

The reduced cost associated with V-bracing probably comes from an interview Andy Powers did around the time of Winter NAMM. In it he talks about getting more sustain and says something like "... How do you do it? You can reduce the amount of top material and build a lighter guitar, that is one way builders try..." what was implied was the traditional techniques luthiers have used for increasing sustain always came with tradeoffs and one of those being increased manufacturing cost. That was at least my interpretation.

It's not something Taylor would ever confirm.

If a manufacturer has innovated by some metrics to improve quality of a product and reduce manufacturing cost, unless competition is forcing them to drop retail price they pocket the earnings for the stakeholders. Not unethical to do this, just the way business works. Things are priced based on what the market allows.

[strumbringer]

Making high end guitars sound worse to make them cheaper would just be bad business. I don't think Taylor is stupid.

Having said that, thus far I have not been blown away by the V-Brace guitars I've played. They seemed to be brighter and more scooped than I generally like. But I recognize this is a matter of personal preference, and what doesn't work for me might be great for someone else. For context, I compared my (admittedly, 11 year old) K24CE with the V-Brace version, fully expecting to like the latter better and prepared to trade up. I also compared a 2017 814ce (X-brace) with an 2018 814ce DLX (V-Brace) [both happened to be in the same store], and I ended up thinking they were closer than the K24s, but the X-brace was fuller and more to my liking.

So, I think they did this to make it sound better based on some sample set. That doesn't mean that all of us agree. Which is why it's nice that there are lots of great guitars to choose from, not all made by Taylor.

[Don Lampson]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

I think you are being too cynical with your ill-considered assumption. If Taylor really wanted to cut costs, they would save much more money by replacing their expensive-to-manufacture plywood cases with molded plastic ones than by modifying their bracing. What evidence do you have that V-bracing production costs are lower than Taylor's standard bracing?

There was / is no cynicism, nor ill-considered assumption involved in my personal opinion of how Taylor appears to operate. Every factory, in every industry, strives to be efficient as possible. I suspect the bracing change will either eliminate, or speed up steps in the manufacturing somewhere along the process? I certainly don't think Taylor is trying to pull a fast one on their customers.....

Back when I was a factory hand, the company would give us Blue Chip Stamps for employee suggestions on how to save the company money. They previously gave out money. It was a money saving suggestion, that they'd save money, by giving out those saving stamps instead... HawHawHaw!

The only "evidence" for my suspicion, is seeing other money saving changes Taylor has used, like switching from Schaller tuners, to their house brand, the use of un-dyed ebony, and changing from real shell to plastic & wood for inlays. I also suspect that those plywood Mexican made cases are cheaper than the molded plastic ones, because that's what Martin uses on their lower tier instruments...

Don

[mrgraveline]

All I have seen from Taylor in the Andy Powers era is Guitars that are seemingly MORE expensive and MORE difficult to build... armrests, thin finishes, extra units and outgoing work... Anyone that thinks this was a change to save money, doesn’t understand how Taylor makes guutars or what it takes to make a change like this.

[LeftIsRight!]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

The reduced cost associated with V-bracing probably comes from an interview Andy Powers did around the time of Winter NAMM. In it he talks about getting more sustain and says something like "... How do you do it? You can reduce the amount of top material and build a lighter guitar, that is one way builders try..." what was implied was the traditional techniques luthiers have used for increasing sustain always came with tradeoffs and one of those being increased manufacturing cost. That was at least my interpretation.

It's not something Taylor would ever confirm.

It’s a bit of stretch but I understand your point and interpretation.

Originally Posted by mrgraveline

All I have seen from Taylor in the Andy Powers era is Guitars that are seemingly MORE expensive and MORE difficult to build... armrests, thin finishes, extra units and outgoing work... Anyone that thinks this was a change to save money, doesn’t understand how Taylor makes guutars or what it takes to make a change like this.

Great point!

Also, as somebody mentioned, one could think of a 100 days to reduce costs other than bracing. For instance...i wanted an “alligator skin” guitar case with my 814ce dlx! But instead taylor gave me a plain looking and perhaps cheaper case LOL.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by strumbringer

Making high end guitars sound worse to make them cheaper would just be bad business. I don't think Taylor is stupid.
...I also compared a 2017 814ce (X-brace) with an 2018 814ce DLX (V-Brace)... and I ended up thinking they were closer than the K24s, but the X-brace was fuller and more to my liking.

Hmmm...

I didn't think the 814-X and the DLX-V were close at all. In fact, the DLX-X is less bass heavy than the regular CE-X and the DLX-V has even less full bass yet.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Don Lampson

...
The only "evidence" for my suspicion, is seeing other money saving changes Taylor has used, like switching from Schaller tuners, to their house brand, the use of un-dyed ebony, and changing from real shell to plastic & wood for inlays. I also suspect that those plywood Mexican made cases are cheaper than the molded plastic ones, because that's what Martin uses on their lower tier instruments...

Don

Taylor switched from Grover tuners sourced from a supplier to Taylor branded tuners sourced directly from the manufacturer that made the Grover branded tuners. The cost savings came from eliminating the middle-man. As I recall, Schallers were only used on certain limited editions and Presentation series guitars.

Taylor never used dyed ebony. They merely began using figured ebony to ensure ebony was used sustainably.

Taylor has used synthetic materials and wood for inlays at least since the early ‘90s if not earlier. The use of wood for inlays has as much to do with consumer preference as much as anything else.

I can’t imagine why you suspect that the greater number of steps it takes to make a plywood case would be less expensive than a machine molded plastic case.

[strumbringer]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Hmmm...

I didn't think the 814-X and the DLX-V were close at all. In fact, the DLX-X is less bass heavy than the regular CE-X and the DLX-V has even less full bass yet.

I didn't say they were very close, just closer than the K24s. Actually although noticeably brighter overall, the DLX-V I played had good low end - possibly even more than the CE-X I was comparing it to, but the low mids were lacking. Hence my impression that the V-brace may make a guitar more scooped.

[g_david59]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes they would do this to save production costs!

I completely agree with the OP.

I think the $$$ is almost entirely why they did this. Keep the tone as close as possible to what they had and save a million plus...or more...a year.

Long, long ago...Taylor jumped the shark from being a luthier/boutique guitar company to a full on high volume production factory...AND...to their credit...they continued to make really terrific looking, playing, and sounding...if you like their tonal signature...guitars.

But...in the last 5 years, you can see where they have started to drift away from the last vestiges of their luthier/boutique roots. All the super cool and interesting custom models that they used to do...all the limited editions, and small batch customs. All the interesting inlay work, all the super cool wood combo's and purfling combo's. The R. Taylor line, the much more expansive BTO program, which has scaled back.

If you have any of their older catalogs from the 80's and early 90's...just go have a look and refresh your memory...and compare to now.

They still make a really really great guitar...but they are definitely leaning "all about the Benjamin's" anymore.

Alas...*sigh*

Glory Days
They pass you by...

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

I was thinking the other day whatever happen to the Spring and Fall Ltd's. I always looked forward to them. Some of the best Taylor's ever built were from those limited series. Lots of bang for buck too. Also, R Taylors still have a solid following. I think Powers has done some nice revoicing on guitars. For example, the maple Taylors came to life with the revoicing Powers did in 2015. The vine inlays Powers did in the fall ltd Koa in 2011 are still seen on today's Taylors. In short, Powers has done a nice job. Not revolutionary, just a good steward taking over for Bob Taylor.

I find it very unlikely that they are saving $10 a guitar by changing the bracing. On the flip side, the bracing does not warrant the recent price increase. However, I suspect labor and overhead are the biggest reason for the recent increase.

I like Taylors. I have owned many and every model size from 300 through 900. Many Limiteds. There is only one Taylor I wish I didn't sell. A 2011 GA Fall Ltd Cocobolo. That guitar was special sonically. It was beautifully crafted, easy to play and real easy on the eyes.

I got a builders edition 614CE coming in the next week or so. I played an 814CE Deluxe V class last week. I can't say the intonation is better, but I will say the note definition and sustain is improved on the 814's I have owned. The V class makes Taylor's sound more Taylor. For some, that is a good thing.