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Old 07-14-2020, 01:41 PM
brianlcox brianlcox is offline
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Default Goodall TRH000 versus Santa Cruz 000 versus Froggy H12 - updated with NGD

Hi All,

You may have heard about my recent disappointment with receiving a Froggy H12 with narrower nut width than disclosed. I loved the tone and responsiveness of the H12 (Adi and Indian Rosewood), and am hoping to find something similar.

Froggy H12s aren't super easy to find around here, so I'm branching out to find other guitars that can get me something similar. I was hoping to get some opinions on the two following guitars and how they compare to a Froggy H12.

1. Goodall TRH000 -12s

Here is the guitar: https://reverb.com/item/31781894-goo...000-2000-circa

I have heard people say that a Goodall TR000 can be quite close to a Froggy H12. Is this true? I had a Goodall TROM with an Adi top and sold it about a year ago because it was braced a bit too heavily and only really worked well with a pick. With a pick it was fabulous, but for bare finger work it didn't really do it for me. I read that the Traditional 000 is built for fingerstyle, so I guess this should be okay. I also found myself wanting a bit more clarity with the TROM when played with bare fingers - should I expect more of the same with the TRH000?
I should note that I won't be paying anywhere near the listed price on reverb. I have been speaking with the seller, and we will be able to agree on a more reasonable price.

2. Santa Cruz 000-12 in European Spruce over African Blackwood. This one is from AGFs own master collector Tadol: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/....php?p=6372017

This one is a short scale and has a nice wide string spacing. I don't really have much to go on, as I haven't played a Santa Cruz 000 before. Anyone care to comment on how this might sound compared to a Froggy H12?

Thanks to all for the advice?
Brian

Last edited by brianlcox; 08-06-2020 at 05:07 AM. Reason: Updated with NGD
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Old 07-14-2020, 02:02 PM
HFox HFox is offline
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First let me say that I'm a SCGC fan and also I think that Tadol is one of the most knowledgeable people outside of the luthiers themselves regarding SCGC guitars.
I have played a few Froggies and Lots of SCs....I think the voicing is very different between the two.
I prefer the very balanced mids for which SC is famous. also the neck shape of the SC fits my hand better ....YMMV of course.
I find Froggies to be very unforgiving of technique again YMMV.
Both are wonderful guitars and you are lucky to be considering either.
I can recommend Tadol highly as A seller and a long distance friend.
Best of luck whichever you choose.
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Old 07-14-2020, 02:06 PM
Quake17 Quake17 is offline
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Brian,

I have no experience with the Goodall 000 so cannot offer an opinion. I do have a Santa Cruz 000-12 and two H-12 Froggies, albeit in different wood combinations, so a grain of salt is recommended.

My 000-12 is Italian Spruce over Cocobolo. It is a really great all around guitar in that it takes strumming and flat picking up to the aggressive level with no complaints. The H-12 Froggies do not respond well if you really dig in, particularly the BRW/Adi. On the other hand, it is otherwise just a sublime guitar. The neck on the Santa Cruz is a modified V, though not too extreme, versus the thinner Froggy Bottom necks. I have one of Tadol’s castaways, a Santa Cruz F model in all mahogany as well as an F in African Blackwood and Swiss Moon Spruce. It is a very focused sound for a rosewood guitar, giving you another tonal option.

Best of luck in your quest!
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Old 07-14-2020, 02:43 PM
tippy5 tippy5 is offline
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I had an amazing Goodall Trad dread. Hardly any overtones. Clarity on high.

But being old I am no longer interested in that manner of play. You're right they sound and play way different than the other non pickguard models. I have had 8 Goodall's and currently have two.

To play these dreads you really need a lot of muscle and a medium to heavy pick. Some would even seek medium gauge, high tension strings. They are clear and BOLD. Great for bluegrass or other fast high energy music.

The smaller Frogs and SCGC's are lighter braced and built. I much rather have one of those at this point in my life. I am sure you can youtube a ton of examples to find one of these amazing guitars that might help narrow down your direction. Good luck in your searches.
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:51 PM
MWB5007 MWB5007 is offline
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This is the second post of yours on this subject I am responding to and I get it.

First off, when it comes to production guitars from small "vintage style" builders like Santa Cruz, Collings, Bourgeois .... they all sound more like each other than they do like a Froggy Bottom. This is also true of Goodall guitars but I don't think Goodall and Froggy Bottoms sound anything like each other.

SO if a Froggy Bottom or Goodall really get under your skin and you are prone to chase such things, then you need to find one and own it, at least for a while because there really is no substitute.

I have owned both but became taken with Froggy Bottom about 7 years ago. As I mentioned in my response to your other post I have played many, many Froggy Bottom guitars however almost all of them had a 2 3/16ths saddle spacing and a 1.75 nut which is just too tight for me. I got a buy on my first Froggy, a P12 but I never really bonded with it because I just didn't enjoy playing it as much as I did other instruments I owned, great tone though.

Then I got an Addi/Maddi H12 and LOVED the tone but ultimately couldn't hold on to it because, again, the geometry (or ergonomics) where just not
my preference. Then one day a member here on the forum whom I occasionally corresponded with went in deep on vintage instruments and a couple of elite one-off builders and he said he had an older FB H12 that sounded a lot like a vintage Martin and had "ld school" spacing .... 1 7/8ths nut and 2 3/8ths saddle (my personal preferences).

I bought it from him and never looked back. I even ended up parting with my very long term love a McAlsiter vintage because I fell so hard for my H12.

That said, I still much prefer a modified V neck like on a Martin or Salta Cruz to the flatter Froggy neck, but maybe you can't have everything in one instrument.

I'm only putting $.02 in the kitty to say: be patient. Don't fall in love with what people say online about a guitar even the most knowledgable and discerning vary in their preferences; and remember that if you find the right girl for you, don't see if you can find a for her just because she might be easier to find and you're ready to dance - cause that is not generally the recipe for lasting relationships.

Last edited by MWB5007; 07-16-2020 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 07-15-2020, 01:39 PM
M Sarad M Sarad is offline
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I would get the Goodall. I played that model at Buffalo Brothers about 15 years ago. Blew me away.
In January I played 20+ SCGC guitars at Sylvan in Santa Cruz, then both of the Goodall 000s. They were great but 8k+. I found them more desirable than all but 2 of the Cruz models.
The slotted head is my preference.
My experience with Froggies is limited. The two I played weren't doing what the Goodall 000s were giving my ears.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:40 PM
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I've played more than one example of each in different wood configurations. I'd say the Santa Cruz version is closer to a vintage Martin from the late 20s in that its a very very lightly built instrument. The Froggy and Goodall are slightly heavier with a louder more powerful bass tone. Lean a bit more to the modern fingerstyle side of the fence than they do to the ultra light weight vintage side of things. Pretty hard to go wrong. I really like all three and it just depends on what you are looking for tonally. If I were looking to play blues I'd probably buy a Santa Cruz if I were looking for a lush fingerstyle instrument to play beautiful classical slower pieces I might gravitate towards the Froggy or Goodall.
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Old 07-15-2020, 03:09 PM
brianlcox brianlcox is offline
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Hi All, OP here.

You guys are awesome! I have decided to put an offer in for the Goodall. Some measurements (which I got photos of! Not making that mistake again!) show that this one has a 1 13/16" nut, which is a huge plus in my book. The Goodall is also much closer to home (in Italy) which will make importing much easier. It was at least $1000 cheaper, and I will save about $600 in shipping and taxes, so that makes it pretty clear to me.

I will have to try for a Santa Cruz another time, and will also keep looking for an H12.

Thanks again for all the feedback!
Brian
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Old 07-15-2020, 03:18 PM
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I’ve owned an H-12, currently own a Goodall TW-000 and have owned a SCGC H13. I own and have owned other guitars by the same builders. I think they are all fantastic. And I think they are different from each other. In a very simplistic comparison, I’d say the SCGC has the strongest fundamentals & less overtones, the H-12 has the most depth, complexity and touch response. The Goodall has a great mix of depth, overtones, sustain and response. I do not find the Goodall and Froggy Bottom are very similar. But they are wonderful guitars and worth owning any or all
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Old 07-15-2020, 05:56 PM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
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Perhaps a moot point, but when deciding on a guitar long ago, I had the time to compare various Collings, Goodall, Martin, SCGC, and one of those Goodalls was the one you mention.

I selected a Goodall but it was a Grand Concert. That guitar stayed with me through several Goodalls that came and went.
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Old 07-16-2020, 05:45 AM
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Mr. Paul Mr. Paul is offline
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Hope it all works out for you. My THR000 is the guitar I've owned the longest ... This 12 fret model is intriguing!

Ad says "circa 2000" but that guitar was made in 2005 fyi.
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Old 07-16-2020, 06:15 AM
MWB5007 MWB5007 is offline
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Absolutely great guitar! Hope you really enjoy it.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:42 AM
kiva238 kiva238 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB5007 View Post
. . . .That said, I still much prefer a modified V neck like on a Martin or Salta Cruz to the flatter Froggy neck, but maybe you can't have everything in one instrument. . . .
I've had the exact same experience with the Froggy neck, but the tone is so magnificent. Every day I wake up and the Froggy croaks out a new sound that makes me forget that the neck shape isn't my favorite. So, maybe I can have everything in one guitar.
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:31 PM
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One can definately have everything one wants in one guitar. You need to meet two qualifications:

1. you need to know in advance what all of those specs are. In my case that took many years to learn. I think many folks buy/order guitars with 2-3 major criteria in mind and its the details that disappoint them

2. You need to custom order the guitar from a builder whose voice you like and whom you trust.

hans
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:22 AM
brianlcox brianlcox is offline
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Hi All,

I just bought the Goodall - I should get it play it in a week or so.

Thanks to all the comments and suggestions. The truth is for me, I don't yet know what I really want, so comissioning a new build is still out of the question. I'm still really enjoying trying many different guitars and gathering information about what works and what doesn't. I know from experience that this is a good string spacing for me, and that I like the 12 fret 000 with a short scale for fingerstyle. Let's hope I like the goodall sound in this package. The TROM I had for a while was great, but was ultimately lacking in responsiveness and clarity for my tastes. I hope that this will be an improvement on both fronts.

Thanks again,
Brian
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