PSA for Prius owners

[1neeto]

It has been going on for a while, at least in Hawaii. A few years ago there was a problem with people stealing the wiring off street lights for the copper. Roads went for years without lighting because people would steal it pretty much as soon as it was repaired. It wasn’t until the state started to crack down on recycling places that the problem stopped.

I’ve been a mechanic for over 20 years, and a safety vehicle inspector for over 17 years in the state of Hawaii. Like someone said, catalytic converters have been around since the 70’s. That’s why leaded gas eventually phased out in the early 80’s. Because leaded gas clogged cat converters, and ruined O2 sensors. OBD (1) became standard in 1991, but most manufacturers had some sort of on board diagnostics way before then. Early OBD had a single cat mounted mid stream in the exhaust system. The exhaust also had a single oxygen sensor mounted as close as possible to the exhaust manifold collector (where all the runners meet to make a single exhaust pipe). This simply wasn’t enough to keep emissions as low as possible. There was no way of telling how well the cat converter was working, until the obvious rotten eggs smell, or horrible fuel economy and engine performance due to failed or clogged cats. Easiest fix was to just remove the thing. OBD2 made a few changes, the most obvious was the use of two O2 sensors, and in some cars, two cat converters. Another very significant change was to move the cat converter much closer to the exhaust manifold. This allows the cat to warm up much faster (cat converters need to get very hot in order to do their thing) and in some cases, a secondary cat was added. Now with two O2 sensors, the ECM can see the air/fuel ratios before and after the primary cat converter. If things are not right, it will throw a code pointing towards an inefficient cat converter.

Because of the higher efficiency of modern cat converters (and overall emission systems), a cat converter failure is quite rare on just about anything newer than 1995. Which also explains their astronomical price.

[RP]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

But what about the low income and disadvantaged folks that struggle to buy ANY car at all? Forcing them to pay even more for yearly inspections and maintenance or newer cars could be totally out of their price range...

The decision to have safe vehicles on the road should not be based on what the least able can afford; it should be based on safety considerations. If someone doesn't have the money to maintain a vehicle to minimal safety standards, then maybe they should use public transportation or carpool. Coincidentally, I had my 2016 Honda CRV w/ 60,000 miles inspected today. I took it to the dealer where I bought it so no charge for inspection, but it needed new windshield wiper blades for $49...

[imwjl]

Bummer. I hope it's resolved well and fast. It's always an extra bummer when something is stolen and damaged from that ugly inside violated feeling.

I'm fine with enforcing standards. It took age, a lot of experiences, and a lot of travel to come around. It started when I was getting through college and had a truck driving job. While I was stressed from driving a rig with poor brakes. It was fortunate that an inspection forced a repair. When we lost a family member in a car accident that was someone else's fault I thought about how standards and enforcement save lives.

In other areas for standards, the cancer I had in my early 40s often occurs with exposure to particular chemicals. I was interviewed and learned a job I had when I was young was cleaning steel drums at a chemical company that later became a super fund site. I was lucky. Others were not lucky. In some places innocent people are still unlucky.

High standards also struck home when my area had an almost freak flooding incident. Good civil engineering, well trained first responders, and lots of resources were credited for only one life lost when flooding like that usually takes a greater toll on life and property.

I confess, you got me, but in my 60s I'm fine with standards and enforcement I thought were very wrong when I was in my 20s.

Closer to topic, I'm aware that there's a trend where municipalities are getting more and more cameras for event's like the true topic here. Also that in the big picture crime drops but with more cameras and more communication we discuss it more.

Again, good luck getting this resolved!

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by RP

The decision to have safe vehicles on the road should not be based on what the least able can afford; it should be based on safety considerations. If someone doesn't have the money to maintain a vehicle to minimal safety standards, then maybe they should use public transportation or carpool. Coincidentally, I had my 2016 Honda CRV w/ 60,000 miles inspected today. I took it to the dealer where I bought it so no charge for inspection, but it needed new windshield wiper blades for $49...

I must agree with this. Driving is a privilege, not a right. If you can’t afford to maintain a car, then you have no business owning a car. There’s always public transportation.

[MartinGibsonFan]

Actually, there always isn't public transportation.

What about people that live in remote areas.

J

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by RP

The decision to have safe vehicles on the road should not be based on what the least able can afford; it should be based on safety considerations. If someone doesn't have the money to maintain a vehicle to minimal safety standards, then maybe they should use public transportation or carpool. Coincidentally, I had my 2016 Honda CRV w/ 60,000 miles inspected today. I took it to the dealer where I bought it so no charge for inspection, but it needed new windshield wiper blades for $49...

I was really referring to the emissions portion of the "inspection", where they make sure that all 379 sensors and emission system components on your powertrain are all happy. You know, the ones that cost lots of money to diagnose/repair when the computer say's it's unhappy.

You'll get no argument from me that it's important everybody have good tires and brakes on their car; though I've heard stories about some states/countries that take inspection way too far (imo), including failing a vehicle because it has a rust hole in the fender, or similar.

[MartinGibsonFan]

Each year, when living in an emission regulation state, I feared my automobile failing the test.

Then, afterwards, trying to get my vehicle into compliance, all those repair shops charging sky high prices to get my car back into compliance.

J

[Tico]

Originally Posted by MartinGibsonFan

Each year, when living in an emission regulation state, I feared my automobile failing the test.

Then, afterwards, trying to get my vehicle into compliance, all those repair shops charging sky high prices to get my car back into compliance.

J

... and the air is cleaner.

[RP]

Originally Posted by MartinGibsonFan

Actually, there always isn't public transportation.

What about people that live in remote areas.

J

I don't live in a remote area but it is rural, and I am car-dependent for getting around. If I couldn't afford the cost and upkeep of a car (or for that matter if at some point I'm no longer able to drive), I'd have to live somewhere where I wasn't car-dependent...

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by RP

I don't live in a remote area but it is rural, and I am car-dependent for getting around. If I couldn't afford the cost and upkeep of a car (or for that matter if at some point I'm no longer able to drive), I'd have to live somewhere where I wasn't car-dependent...

Yep it’s that simple. The average passenger car weights around 3500 pounds. SUV’s and full size pickup trucks (more likely to see in rural areas) weigh in excess of 5000 pounds. That’s a lot of mass to be moved around by someone who can’t afford or doesn’t care to upkeep.

Originally Posted by MartinGibsonFan

Each year, when living in an emission regulation state, I feared my automobile failing the test.

Then, afterwards, trying to get my vehicle into compliance, all those repair shops charging sky high prices to get my car back into compliance.

J

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I was really referring to the emissions portion of the "inspection", where they make sure that all 379 sensors and emission system components on your powertrain are all happy. You know, the ones that cost lots of money to diagnose/repair when the computer say's it's unhappy.

You'll get no argument from me that it's important everybody have good tires and brakes on their car; though I've heard stories about some states/countries that take inspection way too far (imo), including failing a vehicle because it has a rust hole in the fender, or similar.

That’s what I don’t like about safety inspections that are part of a repair shop. It’s basically a conflict of interest. People go in just for a safety check, just to be told they need a $700 repair in order to pass.

[RP]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

...That’s what I don’t like about safety inspections that are part of a repair shop. It’s basically a conflict of interest. People go in just for a safety check, just to be told they need a $700 repair in order to pass.

I suppose this happens and maybe I've been lucky (or just don't keep cars long enough to break down to that extent), but at the age of 70 I've never had that experience...

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by RP

I don't live in a remote area but it is rural, and I am car-dependent for getting around. If I couldn't afford the cost and upkeep of a car (or for that matter if at some point I'm no longer able to drive), I'd have to live somewhere where I wasn't car-dependent...

So the low income/disadvantaged folks that can't afford a new enough or nice enough car to pass stringent inspection needs to get the money to uproot their life and move to an area with good public transportation infrastructure (where cost of living is likely higher)?

[RP]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So the low income/disadvantaged folks that can't afford a new enough or nice enough car to pass stringent inspection needs to get the money to uproot their life and move to an area with good public transportation infrastructure (where cost of living is likely higher)?

We should be able to afford the lifestyle that we choose. If we can't afford it then we need to either earn more money or alter our lifestyle so that we can afford it...

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So the low income/disadvantaged folks that can't afford a new enough or nice enough car to pass stringent inspection needs to get the money to uproot their life and move to an area with good public transportation infrastructure (where cost of living is likely higher)?

Originally Posted by RP

We must be able to afford the lifestyle that we choose. If we can't afford it then we need to choose another lifestyle, and that includes where we live, what kind of things we own and what it costs to maintain those things...

That's tough and complicated stuff. I might have seen it as HodgdonExtreme before I started following a friend's research on the health of our nation's rural poor, and followed my mother's 25 years of doing hospice in a mostly rural area. More recently following the last years of some people I knew and a friend who's job is driving elderly rural poor for county social services. We pay a lot when their care is at emergency rooms and little of it is preventative.

There's even an element maybe tied to the original topic here. Long ago I worked where there was a prison work release program. Now in our retail and food service locations we have many who've been both homeless and in trouble with the law over matters not exactly because they're bad people.

My wife who teaches a challenged group of kids knows some have done criminal acts just to survive.

RP is right but not everyone makes good choices.

On the cars, inspection, and regulation.... They do really interesting stuff to be clean and powerful these days. Some engines integrate exhaust manifold in the head to speed up the heat going into the catalytic converter. Turbos are very common. Not just for high performance vehicles. All that complexity with reliability and durability far beyond what many of us grew up with.

Anyway, I hope no more grief for Seannx and fast resolution. We're also getting closer to no catalytic converters and just the electric part of the Prius. Recent days news said VW is taking orders for the ID.3 I also thought I read Hyundai has a new fuel cell vehicle being released soon.

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by RP

I suppose this happens and maybe I've been lucky (or just don't keep cars long enough to break down to that extent), but at the age of 70 I've never had that experience...

It happens more often than it should. They know you need the safety inspection, and they can pressure you into that repair that must be done in order to pass. Or fail you and you still have to pay the inspection fee.