Learning thumbpicking.

[dtpolk]

Okay...for years now I've looked at books, tried out some teachers (all of who wanted to teach me 5 ways to play Dust In The Wind) and asked around. I'm an old rocker who has fallen in love with the music of Tommy Emmanuel, Doc Watson, Chet, Merl, and Thom Bresh.

So, whats everyone's opinion on the best approach to this finger/thumb independence thing? I have no local teachers who teach this style. I can play some; like Freight Train, Baby's Coming Home and others, even with alternating three note bass, but it just isn't quite right. What have others done here?

[G-Money]

I started with thumb and index finger, working to synchronize and make independent the two strongest digits. Added the middle finger in, working the first string while the index moved to the b string after thumb/index were working well, this took place over many months. Finally added the ring at the end. I think each finger added came easier.

[JonPR]

I don't agree with the "thumb independence" idea. The thumb is not independent from the fingers - it just feels like that once you're accomplished at the technique.

I agree with G-Money that synchronization is the key: thumb and one finger to begin with. I.e., practice simple patterns, where the thumb is on every beat and the index either picks together with the thumb ("pinch stroke") on the beat, or picks between the thumb strokes - maybe only once in each bar. Take this right down as slow as you need to, and think about the thumb-finger combination beat by beat. Remember there are only three possibilities:
1. thumb only (on the beat)
2. finger only (between the beats)
3. thumb and finger together (on the beat)
Even in most of the common complex patterns (where two or three fingers might get involved), that's always the case. I.e., instead the same finger all the time, the fingers might take turns. The finger(s) might be on the beat or between the beats, but the thumb is always on the beat, and on every beat.

Of course, you have to ensure that the thumb keeps the beat steady, and that adding the finger doesn't disturb it. This is where the "thumb first" method often fails, because starting with thumb only and keeping it steady, is relatively easy. Even getting used to alternating between the same strings consistently is not hard. But then bring the finger in, and the usual scenario is that the thumb rhythm breaks down.
That's why you need to start with thumb and finger together from the beginning.
Think about it - your thumb is not physically independent. It's attached to your hand the same as your fingers are! So there is no sense in trying to separate one from the other when learning; you only have to join them up again later. Start with patterns, and start slow and steady. Like this:

  BEAT: |1   .   2   .   3   .   4   .   |
FINGER:          X           X
 THUMB:  X       X       X       X
        one     two   three and four

Use any chord shape you like. The thumb picks the root, and the finger can pick any string - usually 1 2 or 3.
If you want to apply alternating bass, pick root-5th-root-5th with the thumb, the 5th being higher (root-3rd-root-3rd is a common alternative on a C chord), but start with just roots if that's easier to begin with.
Set a metronome if you want, but the main thing is to feel that "one two three and four" rhythm that the pattern makes. The actual strings picked (by the finger) are less important. Play as slow as you need to to keep it all steady and in sync. You're training the thumb/fingers to learn this combination - as they get used to it, you can begin to speed up.

EDIT: sorry I just re-read your post, and I guess you're well beyond these basics! In which case, can I ask what you think "isn't quite right" about what you're doing? Can you upload an example of what you can currently do?

[srick]

Dt - I keep playing along with the recordings trying to match note for note. Sometimes, I’ll just thumb the bass line of a few minutes.

I think the toughest part is that these performers are so skilled, that they effortlessly introduce a little syncopation here, and a little stutter there. As relative newbies, we can’t keep up and then get frustrated that we can’t precisely emulate these mentors.

One other thing that has helped me is a set of Bose neckwear headphones. My hearing is not what it used to be and it really makes the music spatially present, while still allowing me to hear my guitar. I find it’s a closer approximation to playing with other folks in the room. It’s an expensive solution, but it has worked well for me. You can emulate the effect with a good sound system in a lively room.

Also, weekend workshops with both Toby Walker and Martin Grosswendt have been invaluable. These courses (and of course, many others), are taught at an entirely different level. They do Skype lessons too... it might be worth your while to get in touch with them, or others.

And that being said, I sound nothing like Tommy, Doc, Merle, Chet or Thom! On any given day, I’m lucky if I can stay in the groove!

Best,

Rick

[raysachs]

I’m sure everyone learns differently. I had about 10 frustrated aborted attempts to learn fingerpicking over about 40 years before I finally started getting it about 7-8 months ago. I still consider myself a rank beginner, but I’m actually doing it now, rather than thinking should start. What worked for me was taking some online blues fingerpicking courses taught by a guy who just seems to teach in a way I learn well from after trying others that would I doubt have worked for other people but didn’t for me.

I love blues, always have, and I’ve been playing them with a pick on electric and some acoustic for 40 plus years. So my LEFT had was already conversant with slides and bends and hammer one and pull offs and vibrato, etc, etc, etc. But my right hand didn’t know how to use more than one pick at a time.

And I found some courses on TrueFire by a guy named David Hamburger that start the right hand off with the easiest possible stuff. He taught a series of classic blues riffs with a steady bass (just one note thumping on one string / one note at first), while then picking out really simple stuff with two fingers. Each riff got a bit more difficult - he stayed with the steady bass but the bass note would change as the chord would.

By the time I worked through the 25 or 30 lessons in this course (probably 2 plus months), I had a pretty good idea and feel, limited as it was. It didn’t feel like a foreign language anymore. I couldn’t speak it well, but I could get around in a way I knew I wasn’t gonna quit again.

Then I moved on to another course that continued using steady bass, but expanded into longer pieces of music. And then finally he starts incorporating alternating thumb bass lines, going back to really easy stuff with the other fingers while the thumb gets used to alternating strings.

I don’t know why this started working for me when my many other attempts failed, but I’m loving it. I think you just have to start with the simplest possible versions of music you absolutely love because you at least know what you’re trying to sound like. If someone tried to teach me Dust in the Wind Idhave to throw them out my window - I HATE that song! But start teaching me the blues freight train sounds or something that sounds a bit like the intro to Dust My Broom and I’m after it like a rabid dog, because I LOVE that stuff.

So find someone who teaches what you want to learn and go back to square one...

[rick-slo]

Learning tunes in that style is the best way to play that style. Many tabs are available you can digest.

[dtpolk]

Thanks for the responses guys! I think syncopation is my biggest problem. I can start a tune and maybe get five or six measures in and suddenly the thumb just fades away, usually when the melody gets more complex. Then there are some tunes that leave me exasperated! One example is the Jerry Reed tune Struttin. I can play the opening melody just fine, and the alternating bass line as well. But when I try to put them together....well, it goes all to hell.

Are the TrueFire courses expensive? Like I mentioned, we have no local teacher here doing this style, so such courses might be invaluable.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by dtpolk

Thanks for the responses guys! I think syncopation is my biggest problem. I can start a tune and maybe get five or six measures in and suddenly the thumb just fades away, usually when the melody gets more complex. Then there are some tunes that leave me exasperated! One example is the Jerry Reed tune Struttin. I can play the opening melody just fine, and the alternating bass line as well. But when I try to put them together....well, it goes all to hell.

Are the TrueFire courses expensive? Like I mentioned, we have no local teacher here doing this style, so such courses might be invaluable.

Why not just keep working on "Struttin" until you can play it? That is the most direct approach and the technique you learn there will help nail down the next tune and so on.

[srick]

Originally Posted by dtpolk

Thanks for the responses guys! I think syncopation is my biggest problem. I can start a tune and maybe get five or six measures in and suddenly the thumb just fades away, usually when the melody gets more complex.

I couldn't agree more. And that's where I find playing along with the performance really helps. Eventually, you develop your own style with your own syncopation.

Then there are some tunes that leave me exasperated! One example is the Jerry Reed tune Struttin. I can play the opening melody just fine, and the alternating bass line as well. But when I try to put them together....well, it goes all to hell.

Struttin' may be one of the trickiest songs that you could ever take on. In fact, anything by Jerry Reed is way over the top. He pretty much could blow anyone out of the water with his playing!

Are the TrueFire courses expensive? Like I mentioned, we have no local teacher here doing this style, so such courses might be invaluable.

I would recommend Toby Walker's lessons (littletobywalker.com) over Truefire. Toby teaches on many different levels. He is available via e-mail and Skype. He also has a subscription Website.

I have been a Truefire member for many years. IMO, their lessons can be very sterile and formulaic. The other problem with Truefire is that there is too much to choose from. It leads to guitar lesson ADD.

Keep at it - it does get better the longer that you work on it. But as I said earlier, the real secret is "hearing" the beat and then emphasizing that beat in your playing. You can screw up the melody a bunch and no one will know. Screw up the beat, and everyone knows.

best,

Rick

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by srick

I would recommend Toby Walker's lessons (littletobywalker.com) over Truefire. Toby teaches on many different levels. He is available via e-mail and Skype. He also has a subscription Website.

I have been a Truefire member for many years. IMO, their lessons can be very sterile and formulaic. The other problem with Truefire is that there is too much to choose from. It leads to guitar lesson ADD.

I tried Toby's lessons and couldn't get it, for whatever reason. I wanted to, but each of us learns differently and each of us teaches differently and sometimes there's a match and sometimes there's not.

TrueFire is HUGE. You can get ADD from it if you let yourself. And there's a lot of stuff on there that won't work for a given student and a lot that likely will. I've had my share of failures with their stuff, but also my successes. My approach is just to buy a course and work through it. All access plans never work for me, but buying a single course, maybe two, and taking it step by step (at my own pace - all access plans always seem to make you want to go faster so you can take advantage of more courses) seems to work for me. And, for whatever reason, David Hamburger's style of teaching and the content he included finally broke through for me.

I wouldn't really recommend TrueFire or Toby in particular, or Stephen Grossman or anyone else in particular. We each just have to find what works for us. Sometimes that takes some experimentation.

But to answer the OP's question, no their courses aren't particularly expensive, pretty competitive with others I'd say. A single course available for streaming or download is usually in the $30 range, often with discounts available. And it usually takes me a couple months to work all the way through one of them, depending on it's level of difficulty, so that's an expense I can handle in the name of getting better.

[Pitar]

Thumb dependence, or interdependence, is actually what occurs. But I understand the notion of involving the thumb to coordinate it's own role with the fingers can be thought of as thumb independence.

I started out fingerpicking Travis style (alternating). Two weeks into it and the flatpicks were given away. I don't remember anything of that learning period other than assigning the A & E strings to the thumb and the rest of the strings to my fingers (all 4). I was pretty inflexible with that for about a year. My thumb was fully coordinated with the patterns I began using, mixing and making up after that.

If you want a good exercise for the thumb, index and middle fingers, play a slow version of Jose' Feliciano's Malagueña.

[macmanmatty]

Learning to finger pick is two step process .

Step #1 Learn every finger picking pattern out there .

Step #2 Unlearn all of those patterns for finger independence.


Start with the thumb and just keep hitting strings 6 and 5 back and fourth in some kind of timing. or maybe 5 then 6 or if on a G major chord string 6 then 4 or 4 then 5 for a D major chord.
You usually want to root then 5th on the bass of the chords and start on the root when you play that chord. Then a add another finger usually middle or index and go back and fourth between strings 6 and 5 with another string in between then learn other patterns.

Then proceed to step two.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by dtpolk

Thanks for the responses guys! I think syncopation is my biggest problem. I can start a tune and maybe get five or six measures in and suddenly the thumb just fades away, usually when the melody gets more complex. Then there are some tunes that leave me exasperated! One example is the Jerry Reed tune Struttin. I can play the opening melody just fine, and the alternating bass line as well. But when I try to put them together....well, it goes all to hell.

Just slow down the tricky parts and take them steady. Combine melody and bass from the start - otherwise they will always fall apart when you combine them later.

This does mean that you may have to take much longer than you think you should (perhaps when other parts of the tune seem easy enough). But it's a purely mechanical process - getting thumb and fingers co-ordinated and synchronised, while holding the beat. There's no magic and no short cuts. No "method". I mean, other than what I just explained.

Naturally there are lots people who want to sell you books and DVDs. They have to make a living! But all the masters of this technique taught themselves, by painstaking copying of records, and going over patterns for as long it took.
I'm not saying no book or "method" will help, but you have to do the work yourself in the end, and the process is actually very simple.

(But Struttin' is a very difficult piece, IMO. I'm nowhere near mastering it myself, and I can play a few other challenging pieces. That pinky has a whole lot of work to do... Video of Reed playing it helps a lot.)

[El Duque]

JonPr tells it like it is!

It takes time and practise. duh. but after you get it you'll be thinking it wasn't that hard.

I haven't taken a course on truefire yet but I like David Hamburger's style. He is good.

What I've been doing lately is downloading a youtube vid to "Transcribe" of a song I really want to learn. I can slow it down, loop it, blow up the view and see which strings are vibrating if I need to. I take a little section maybe learn a couple notes at a time. What sounds like a lot of syncopated stuff gets broken down to very small pieces. I learn a little section and then move on. I can play it slow and move up the speed til I get it. I've learned stuff I would not have been able to otherwise even with the tab.

[El Duque]

Wow. Struttin is a cool tune. I never heard of it.

I learned Jiffy Jam but Struttin is on the next level.

Have you seen this guy break it down on YT?


I'm a gonna have to give it a go. Very Cool. You get this and you will have arrived !

In the comments section someone asked:
"How long did it take you to get a good level of right hand thumb independence?"

his answer:
"Hi. I wonder if you should think about it as thumb independence from the start. (question) For me it was just a sequence of fingers and thumb moves at the beginning. Only later, once I knew my songs really well the independence popped into existence as a result of paying attention to particular voices."