Spruce or Cedar

[paulorr8179]

I find spruce brighter than cedar. That said when I set about looking to buy my Cordoba Solista, I called the company who sells B stock Cordobas at a significant discount. When we chatted about top wood, the guy I spoke to said out of 27 people he blind tested, none of them could pick out what was cedar and what was spruce. Frankly I find that a little hard to believe.

Can you guys tell a difference?

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by paulorr8179

I find spruce brighter than cedar. That said when I set about looking to buy my Cordoba Solista, I called the company who sells B stock Cordobas at a significant discount. When we chatted about top wood, the guy I spoke to said out of 27 people he blind tested, none of them could pick out what was cedar and what was spruce. Frankly I find that a little hard to believe.

Can you guys tell a difference?

Let's put it this way... I thought I could tell the difference for many years, based on ownership and demo'ing hundreds of instruments. But I'm starting to think that the build (top bracing and top thickness) have more to do with guitar tone than the wood type does. I think that after playing many examples of cedar guitars that sounded darker, and spruce ones that sounded lighter... I had developed an opinion about them and after that, my eyes probably started playing a bigger role than my ears. Having said that... I still believe that if you build two indentical guitars, but one with a cedar top, and one with spruce, the cedar will be stronger in the mids and the spruce will be stronger in the highs.

When I bought my Breedlove American C25 SReH spruce/rosewood ($2K steel string) years ago, the sales guy actually blindfolded me and had me also try the C25 CReH cedar/rosewood and the difference in tone was noticeable. I preferred the brightness of spruce. I also blind tested a bunch of other guitars that day and there was a noticable difference between the spruce and cedar ones. But I know that you can certainly find brighter cedar and darker spruce here and there.

Body would makes a definite difference as well. I've had two Cordoba GK Pro negras (rosewood) and two GK Pro blancas (cypress), and the negras definitely had a thicker tone, while the blancas had more snap.

[sirwhale]

When I tried a Camps primera blanca, and then a Camps primera negra in a shop, the difference was night and day. There was such a contrast in the depth of tone and the bass that I impulsively though, bah, this negra is all bass and no treble. But no, I ended up buying the negra because it is a wonderful guitar, it's just that initial contrast was so big.

Both had spruce tops but different back and sides. Now, I've heard much less difference between cedar and spruce tops. I actually had a Camps cedar crossover that was very bright, brighter than my (spruce) negra.

[Vyse Hazuky]

IMO this can only be compared between the same factory models, not between different models of the same brand or different brands. With handmade luthier guitars it's impossible because no 2 are the same (and the bracing is as much the luthier's signature as is his actual signature on the label). Just take it as you like it.

[dosland]

I have an Alhambra 7c and a 7p, built in 2008 and 2002, respectively. The differences in sound are about what you'd expect based on the stereotypes about spruce and cedar. But I don't think it's down to the top woods, because despite being sort of the same guitar (7c in this case has mahogany back and sides and cedar top, 7p has spruce top and rosewood back and sides), they feel and sound like very different instruments. The cedar top is thinner (I think?) than the spruce top, and the spruce-topped guitar is noticeably heavier (I think?) than the 7c. There are a lot of other differences like trim details and finish details (is the 7p top finish marginally thinner than that on the 7c? I can't tell, but I imagine it is for some reason). So I come down on the "some guitars sound different from other guitars" side - and I figure all you can really do to know for sure what you're going to get is play the instruments you're considering. Barring that, I suppose it's a reasonably safe bet that factory grade guitars (like mine) arrive at a level of consistency that may allow you to set your expectations based on other peoples' experiences and extensive reviews (but you still have to keep in mind that you may get lucky or unlucky with a factory instrument for a huge variety of reasons).

[DownUpDave]

I had a Cordoba C10 spruce and rosewood and a C9 cedar and mahogany in the house at the same time. They exhibited the stereo typical differences.....spruce was brighter, cedar warmer.

But as others have said nothing is ever really cut and dry when it comes to wood. I have a played cedar tops that are bright and spruce that are warm. The builder, the individual tops and the back wood used all influence the sound. In a blind test I have been easily fooled.

[fitness1]

The other variable that I didn't notice discussed here is the age of the guitar - a spruce soundboard on a classical can be very tight sounding when it's in it's infancy, and cedar is much more mature right out of the gate. Which is why I have a hard time believing what you were told. I'm pretty confident I'd be able to tell pretty quickly on the Solistas or C10's.

My take on this is, if everything else is the same (which it never really is) - over time, the spruce soundboard will likely head more toward the tonal qualities of the cedar over time.

The only classicals I've owned of the same brand/model with both tops is the Loriente Clarita. I've had 3 spruce tops and 2 cedars. Both cedars were WAY too dark sounding for me, lacking clarity in the mids.

I currently am playing a Solista with a Spruce top and am completely enamored with it since I've done some tweaks. It has the best of both worlds - nice round bass, clarity in the mids and fat trebles.

[Pat Foster]

I built two classical guitars side by side a few years ago for my teacher and his teacher, ordered on the same day. They were identical—as close as I could make them— except that one was spruce, the other cedar, both based on the Torres SE114. I used the same testing to determine optimum top thickness. The two play in a guitar duo, and shortly after they took delivery, they got together for a comparison session and invited me to listen. When the owner of the cedar guitar played it, it was the brigher than when he played the spruce guitar. When the owner of the spruce played them, the spruce guitar was brigher. Go figure!

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Pat Foster

I built two classical guitars side by side a few years ago for my teacher and his teacher, ordered on the same day. They were identical—as close as I could make them— except that one was spruce, the other cedar, both based on the Torres SE114. I used the same testing to determine optimum top thickness. The two play in a guitar duo, and shortly after they took delivery, they got together for a comparison session and invited me to listen. When the owner of the cedar guitar played it, it was the brigher than when he played the spruce guitar. When the owner of the spruce played them, the spruce guitar was brigher. Go figure!

Sounds like the difference in nails and attack!

[paulorr8179]

I bought the Solista with the spruce top and it is really fine. I like it a lot.

Of course, I can't stop there now. I would like a Cordoba 45 LTD spruce top with the black and white sides (name of the wood escapes me at the moment). Laminate but these are great sounding guitars as well.

P

[phade314]

These days I like cedar more than spruce, but my hearing is shot, so I'm basing this on smell more than tonal quality. Stupid tinnitus.

[Cedar51]

The sound of cedar or spruce might not be that obvious to the listener, but as a player I find they "feel" different when playing. Cedar definitely feels easier to play in my experience... there is something about it's responsiveness I like. Spruce guitars seem to have a nice bright punchy sound but I feel like I'm walking a tightrope when I play on them. Cedar seems much more forgiving somehow. I find it easier to keep rhythm and not make mistakes on cedar. My only problem with cedar is that the basses are often more muddy and less crisp than spruce and the balance tends to be too bass heavy.

[redir]

There is a definite difference and just becasue you cannot tell in a blind test doesn't mean that there is no difference.

BUt there is a lot of variation in species. A good luthier can work a piece of cedar to give it spruce like qualities and vice versa.

[Digelectric]

Originally Posted by Pat Foster

I built two classical guitars side by side a few years ago for my teacher and his teacher, ordered on the same day. They were identical—as close as I could make them— except that one was spruce, the other cedar, both based on the Torres SE114. I used the same testing to determine optimum top thickness. The two play in a guitar duo, and shortly after they took delivery, they got together for a comparison session and invited me to listen. When the owner of the cedar guitar played it, it was the brigher than when he played the spruce guitar. When the owner of the spruce played them, the spruce guitar was brigher. Go figure!

I know a guy who can probably play a plastic children’s guitar from Wal Mart and make it sound like some flamenco master is playing a $50k guitar. I simply couldn’t be friends with him after witnessing his playing

[MasterMonkeyMan]

Originally Posted by phade314

These days I like cedar more than spruce, but my hearing is shot, so I'm basing this on smell more than tonal quality. Stupid tinnitus.

Agreed! I always appreciated the smell and look of Cedar. I have a Spruce top and a Cedar top guitar so best of both worlds I suppose. And Tinnitus - in both Cedar and Spruce versions!