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  #31  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:31 AM
6L6 6L6 is offline
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Martin dread + K&K = TONE
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:40 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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Really? The nut width is 1.73 with puts them kind of in between 11/16ths and 3/4. Shouldn't feel much different than 1 3/4".

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Originally Posted by Methos1979 View Post
Local shot just started carrying Cole Clarks and they have a couple in the shop. I've played them unplugged and they sounded okay. I plan to play them plugged in soon and will report back although their nut widths are too narrow for me to consider. But I still want to see (hear) what all the buzz is about.
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:42 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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Not really a fan of K&Ks. They sound better than a typical piezo for sure, but they can't compete with the big boys (Anthem, Aura, Schatten, etc)

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Martin dread + K&K = TONE
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:45 AM
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OP-RobKay,

* Please see my previous posts #3 and live video #13... again while Cole Clark and Maton have outstanding electronics, their build quality and unplugged tone were no match for a MIJ Takamine Pro 3 Series which are much livelier and resonant... not to mention being much less expensive!

** I've demo'd them side by side , owned 6+ MIJ Taks, have used all 3 interchangeable preamps and have performed hundreds of shows big and small stages. The Tak's versatility, unplugged and amplified edges out the Cole Clark, Matons in being an overall more complete plug n play instrument. I have several friends that use Ovations too and they sound outstanding amplified and equally satisfying to the Tak, Cole's and Matons... all four aforementioned brands certainly have way more weight and beef sonically when amplified as plug n play guitars over Taylor's ES2 system any day. The ES2 benefits and gets closer imo with some outboard help such as a Session.

*** Another interesting thread on this topic: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=454718

**** Of course a lot depends on your specific needs and playing style as to what works best for you in combination with what amp/pa, strings, pick etc you use to achieve your sound. As a soloist performing a wide array of styles and variety of music, I have found after playing all the above that the MIJ Takamines, specifically the Pro 3 Series with either the CTBII or Cooltube 2 onboard preamp work best for me. (Some of Tak's other models not as well). I use medium gauge strings tuned down a half step and BC TAD 50 picks and run my Tak directly into one or two Loudbox Performers or chain a Presonus Air10 to the LBP if I need more for large outdoor stages. This combination of parts sums up well for my hands and voice.

***** You must consider all your variables and put together what works for you, my setup or another poster's preferences that work well for them may not achieve what your looking for. My input here is to lend my thoughts from a lot of experience to give you some ideas, but it is by no means a one size fits all. If I have to rate these guitar brands as plug n play factory on board systems for what I prefer and use, it as follows and YMMV:

UNPLUGGED:
#1 MIJ Takamine P3NC or DC
#2 Taylor GS size in cedar/mahogany comparable
#3 Ovation's contour back models mentioned in this thread
#4 Maton
#5 Cole Clark

Amplified:
#1 MIJ Takamine, all 3 onboard interchangeable preamps are outstanding live and in the studio, especially the Cooltube for recording.
#2 Maton, ColeClark; both sound killer!
#3 Ovation, both their main preamps sound very nice, very natural.
* these top 4 are really a toss up and so close in performance...Tak, CC, and Maton each have multiple source capability and/or functions.
#4 Taylor ES2 is very clean sound.

****** You can't go wrong with any of the above and hopefully from the experiences shared here from fellow AGF alumni and myself, it will help you get closer to an informed decision as you hopefully get to demo these outstanding systems and find one that suits you... who knows, you may find that maybe a Martin with an Anthem works best for you, they sound wonderful too!!

PS ...and let's not forget, Maton copied it's piezo design from Takamine... Takamine nailed it years earlier and I still prefer it. I'll take Takamine's split saddle design and it's excellent intonation over that of Maton's and CC any day. Check out Takamine's Palathetic piezo on the left and compare to Maton's on the right:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 101 pp.jpg (78.1 KB, 75 views)
File Type: jpg 102 maton.jpg (66.0 KB, 73 views)
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Last edited by noledog; 07-22-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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  #35  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:50 AM
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Seems to always be a debate between Maton and Cole Clark for which has a better plugged in sound. Guess they are both equally great?
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  #36  
Old 07-17-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB1 View Post
Really? The nut width is 1.73 with puts them kind of in between 11/16ths and 3/4. Shouldn't feel much different than 1 3/4".
I guess I should qualify and quantify my statement in that as of late I'm playing a hybrid CF nylon guitar with a 1 7/8" nut so while 1 3/4" feels okay, anything less feels VERY cramped to me. I thought the CC's I played were both 1 11/16". They felt very narrow and cramped.
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  #37  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:46 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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The Maton system is a pickup with an internal mic to make it 'real' instead of sounding like an electric Tele...

Again, don't go on after the Maton Player - TE live in Pensacola:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPndTJFnJrc


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  #38  
Old 07-18-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noledog View Post
OP-RobKay,

* Please see my previous posts #3 and live video #13... again while Cole Clark and Maton have outstanding electronics, their build quality and unplugged tone were no match for a MIJ Takamine Pro 3 Series which are much livelier and resonant... not to mention being much less expensive!

** I've demo'd them side by side , owned 6+ MIJ Taks, have used all 3 interchangeable preamps and have performed hundreds of shows big and small stages. The Tak's versatility, unplugged and amplified edges out the Cole Clark, Matons in being an overall more complete plug n play instrument. I have several friends that use Ovations too and they sound outstanding amplified and equally satisfying to the Tak, Cole's and Matons... all four aforementioned brands certainly have way more weight and beef sonically when amplified as plug n play guitars over Taylor's ES2 system any day. The ES2 benefits and gets closer imo with some outboard help such as a Session.

*** Another interesting thread on this topic: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=454718

**** Of course a lot depends on your specific needs and playing style as to what works best for you in combination with what amp/pa, strings, pick etc you use to achieve your sound. As a soloist performing a wide array of styles and variety of music, I have found after playing all the above that the MIJ Takamines, specifically the Pro 3 Series with either the CTBII or Cooltube 2 onboard preamp work best for me. (Some of Tak's other models not as well). I use medium gauge strings tuned down a half step and BC TAD 50 picks and run my Tak directly into one or two Loudbox Performers or chain a Presonus Air10 to the LBP if I need more for large outdoor stages. This combination of parts sums up well for my hands and voice.

***** You must consider all your variables and put together what works for you, my setup or another poster's preferences that work well for them may not achieve what your looking for. My input here is to lend my thoughts from a lot of experience to give you some ideas, but it is by no means a one size fits all. If I have to rate these guitar brands as plug n play factory on board systems for what I prefer and use, it as follows and YMMV:

UNPLUGGED:
#1 MIJ Takamine P3NC or DC
#2 Taylor GS size in cedar/mahogany comparable
#3 Ovation's contour back models mentioned in this thread
#4 Maton
#5 Cole Clark

Amplified:
#1 MIJ Takamine, all 3 onboard interchangeable preamps are outstanding live and in the studio, especially the Cooltube for recording.
#2 Maton, ColeClark; both sound killer!
#3 Ovation, both their main preamps sound very nice, very natural.
* these top 4 are really a toss up and so close in performance...Tak, CC, and Maton each have multiple source capability and/or functions.
#4 Taylor ES2 is very clean sound.

You can't go wrong with any of the above and hopefully from the experiences shared here from fellow AGF alumni and myself, it will help you get closer to an informed decision as you hopefully get to demo these outstanding systems and find one that suits you... who knows, you may find that maybe a Martin with an Anthem works best for you, they sound wonderful too!!

eric
Great post Eric. I like your list and agree. My Duo partner / band mate has been playing Ovations for years. He gets nothing short of an exceptional sound. he plays with bare right hand for picking, strumming and that warms it up and it always sounds musical and organic. I've played it before with a pick and its good, but not quite 'as good or as organic' as using his hand for picking. Just an interesting data point. He has the $1199 version and it sounds just as good as his almost $3K Ovation. I am always surprised how good of a sound he gets.
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  #39  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:52 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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I agree that Tak's sound great live, but I think they are a step below Cole Clark and Maton, but all 3 are head and shoulders above Taylor's ES2 system and most typical piezo pickups.

On a related note, Yamaha has a new 3 way system in their new Red Label guitars that might beat the all

Quote:
Originally Posted by noledog View Post

Amplified:
#1 MIJ Takamine, all 3 onboard interchangeable preamps are outstanding live and in the studio, especially the Cooltube for recording.
#2 Maton, ColeClark; both sound killer!
#3 Ovation, both their main preamps sound very nice, very natural.
* these top 4 are really a toss up and so close in performance...Tak, CC, and Maton each have multiple source capability and/or functions.
#4 Taylor ES2 is very clean sound.

You can't go wrong with any of the above and hopefully from the experiences shared here from fellow AGF alumni and myself, it will help you get closer to an informed decision as you hopefully get to demo these outstanding systems and find one that suits you... who knows, you may find that maybe a Martin with an Anthem works best for you, they sound wonderful too!!

eric
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  #40  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:56 AM
PorkPieGuy PorkPieGuy is offline
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I've had my Takamine EF-341SC for 15 years now, and it's never sounded bad plugged in. Ever. Even through a crummy amp or PA system, it still sounds pretty darn good.
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  #41  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:07 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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I agree.....had one and would still have it if it had 2 things:
1) a satin neck
2) a 1 3/4" nut

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy View Post
I've had my Takamine EF-341SC for 15 years now, and it's never sounded bad plugged in. Ever. Even through a crummy amp or PA system, it still sounds pretty darn good.
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  #42  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:48 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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A great thing about the Maton AP5-Pro pickup system is the controls - since 2013, all the guitars with this system have in front of your eyes : a volume control for the piezo AND a volume control for the internal mic, treble, bass control PLUS the biggie...a sweepable mid control which is enough to get rid of the worst of the piezo kloink. Really smooth:

https://maton.com.au/product/ap5pro-pickup


Nobody commented on the video I posted earlier of the Live in Pensacola concert with Tommy Emmanuel. Have a listen about halfway through the long video if you don't want to watch all of it, though watching all of it is a lesson in itself. TE uses this pickup in a new Maton run to a little preamp/DI for more control and splits it to his amp and PA/Mixer. That's it. That is all. Great, great sound live.



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  #43  
Old 07-19-2019, 08:11 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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Seems like the general consensus is that Cole Clark > Maton.

I wonder what would have a better plugged in sound? A Cole Clark or a Martin with an Anthem pickup installed?
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  #44  
Old 07-21-2019, 11:09 AM
JackB1 JackB1 is offline
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Here is a Cole Clark vs a Martin with an Anthem pickup. Both played through same Shertler amp at a good volume so hopefully the acoustic sound isn’t interfering. What do you prefer? The Martin is first.

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Last edited by JackB1; 07-22-2019 at 08:06 AM.
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2019, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB1 View Post
I agree that Tak's sound great live, but I think they are a step below Cole Clark and Maton, but all 3 are head and shoulders above Taylor's ES2 system and most typical piezo pickups.

On a related note, Yamaha has a new 3 way system in their new Red Label guitars that might beat the all
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB1 View Post
Seems like the general consensus is that Cole Clark > Maton.

I wonder what would have a better plugged in sound? A Cole Clark or a Martin with an Anthem pickup installed?
* Step below? How so? Have you extensively demo'd these three systems unplugged and amplified? If so, side by side thru same system? Are you aware that Maton, then CC pretty much took it's piezo design from Takamine who invented it in the 80's? Check it out; Takamine Palathetic pickup 1st pic, Maton is the second pic... and as I posted earlier, I'll take the excellent intonation of Takamine's split saddle design any day. Maton's AP5 Pro preamp adds a mic and does sound good, but at higher volumes it becomes useless due to feedback. Tak's Cooltube preamp uses a tube to warm the tone and is not feedback prone, plus it has second source input and controls if you want to add a mic or mag soundhole pickup, (like the Triax), in addition to blending them with the Cooltube. Plus MIJ Pro Tak's have 3 interchangeable preamps... a step below, I think not!

** Plus Maton and CC took a page out of Takamine's Cooltube and CT4DX preamp designs with fine tuning mid freq controls and battery compartment. BTW> if you want real consensus, ask studio engineers and pro touring musicians and you'll find Takamine at the top taking nothing away from Maton and CC accomplishments who have done well. BTW I think Mr Cole and Mr Clark who worked at Maton, and started CC, are no longer are affiliated with CC, but that I'm not 100% sure, so don't quote me on that part.

*** As far as the Anthem goes, I think it sounds great and if I owned multiple Martin stage guitars like our AGF brother Groberts, I would use the Anthem or maybe the Session VTC. All of the above have inherent multi-source design abilities to amplify via UST and sensors or UST and mic to pickup more body and reduce quack as well as warm and fatten tone without the need for additional outboard gear... The ES2 definitely requires some outboard gear like a Session to warm it up and thicken up it's hollow character. Yamaha's latest I've only demo'd once and that is not enough to make me form my opinion yet on it, however, what I did hear was impressive. I will say that the Yamaha noticeably weighed more than my KC70 & P3NC Tak's that each weigh in at 4 1/2lbs. Try to demo as much and many of these as you can and get what works for you. Cheers
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 101 pp.jpg (78.1 KB, 78 views)
File Type: jpg 102+.jpg (26.5 KB, 77 views)
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Last edited by noledog; 07-22-2019 at 10:41 PM.
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