Yamaha FG-110 bridge modifications and sound

[jdk3d]

This is my first post, so I hope it's in the right place and not too long. I recently acquired a Yamaha FG 110 (made in Taiwan) Although
the action is too high to play comfortably on the higher frets, it sounds great! So, I replaced the original saddle with a filed down compensated bone saddle that I had from another project. It's sitting in the bridge as low as it possibly could be. The guitar still sounds good, but the height of the low e is still about 3.5 mm at the 12th fret. I'd like to bring it down to 2.5 mm without losing whatever it is that produces the nice tone. The strings have just the right amount of tension, vibration and reponsiveness...it just sounds and feels alive, compared to a lot of other guitars I've had.
Due to cost considerations, and the question of whether the neck is glued in with epoxy as is the case with some vintage Yamahas, (or so I've read), I don't know if a neck reset is really an option, so sanding the bridge down and lowering the saddle more and then cutting ramps from the bridge pin holes to the saddle, seems to be the most practical option. However, I'm concerned that this method might reduce the string tension and undo whatever magical combination of factors that makes this guitar sing as nicely as it does. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[wblynch]

I’m curious too as I have an old FG-151b. My imagination leads me to think shaving down the bridge might help playability at the expense of tone and volume. I’m reticent to make such a modification until I understand the implications. Let us know how you decide to proceed.

By the way, you didn’t mention if you have already adjusted the truss rod for neck relief.

[stormin1155]

I have several old Yamahas, including a FG-110 like yours. I've done neck resets on a couple. The rumor that Yamaha used epoxy instead of wood glue is false. You can take the neck off the same way as any other guitar. They did use a lot of glue, so it may take a bit longer for the heat/steam to do its job.

[warddix]

I have the FG110 same guitar, same problem (I think), same great tone. Add in 40 plus years of sentimental value. What does the group think of the “bridge doctors” from JLD? I’m thinking if I can drop some of the belly from the top, it might be more playable.

[TNO]

Like the other poster said, truss rod adjustment and I would add string height at the nut. I'm guessing you've already done that stuff tho. Definitely ramp the string slots behind the saddle. When the saddle is lowered as far as it can go you can lose tone due to poor string angle not exerting enough downward pressure.

Besides a neck reset another thing to try would be the JLD Bridge Doctor. Haven't done this to any of mine but they are said to work well on vintage Yammies.

[ChalkLitIScream]

just wanted to point out a few things:

-you will lose volume and overall tone the lower your strings sit above the top of the guitar. Shaving the bridge, or saddle will lower the string height. Ideally you want .5 inch distance from the strings and the top.

-The only correct way is to readjust the neck angle via a reset, but given the situation, you probably will need to shave the bridge down to expose more room for the saddle.

-from personal experience, clearance of the string from the soundboard less than 0.4inches KILLS the guitar. It is a tradeoff, and in the end I guess I would prefer a mediocre sound with great playability over a good sound that's unplayable

[rumble]

Originally Posted by warddix

I have the FG110 same guitar, same problem (I think), same great tone. Add in 40 plus years of sentimental value. What does the group think of the “bridge doctors” from JLD? I’m thinking if I can drop some of the belly from the top, it might be more playable.

I’ve put two JLD bridge doc’s on two older FG’S, a 300 and a 500. And both guitars benefited both in tone and action. I did shave both the bridge and saddle as well. Far less expensive than a neck reset. There was no noticeable volume change and the special something improved .

[jdk3d]

Thanks for all the replies! Here's my attempt to address the contributions everyone has made-

Earlier in the week I checked the truss rod. It was stiff so I sprayed a small amount of penetrating oil on the nut. Today I got the neck relief down to about as low as it should go, maybe even a little too low. It brought the low e string height to just under 3mm at the 12th, so that's good and at the very least, I know I can adjust the neck relief, now.

It looks like we're thinking along the same lines. I actually ordered a bridge doctor earlier in the week, but in the mean time, I've changed my mind about using it. After I got it, I put a straight edge across the belly where it seemed the highest. As I had seen on a YouTube tutorial, I placed coins under the ends of the measuring edge. 2 dimes at each side of the guitar top were too thick, so I estimate the elevation of the belly at it's highest point is only around 2 mm. That's hardly anything, I think!

As was mentioned about getting good results with JDL bridge doctor on an FG 300 and 500, I think it probably works pretty well on larger bodied guitars like those, but, (and I could be wrong), unless a smaller guitar like an FG-110 had more pronounced belly bulge problem, I'm just guessing that a bridge doctor might not bring the string height down more than a few tenths of a mm, (although it might improve the sound, from what I've read). When I apply gentle pressure to the top -behind the bridge, there isn't a lot of movement to play with, but perhaps the effect over time on the wood, would be more significant. I might change my mind about using the JDL, but for now, I'm going to hold off.



Re: The height of the strings off the soundboard, I wonder if smaller guitars like this one were designed to have the strings closer than 1/2 inches? I've seen some dreadnoughts with really thick bridges, but on this guitar the bridge is only a little bit thicker than 1/4 inch, so even with a full height saddle, 1/2 inch might be a stretch in terms of a goal. I checked a couple other of my small guitars that I know have never had a bridge shave and found similar dimensions for bridge and saddle. Having said all this, I completely agree that lowering the bridge runs the risk of ruining the sound.. I guess it's a matter of working with the variables at hand and not doing anything crazy that'll bring the strings too close to the top, in proportion to the original distance.

I also plan to ramp the bridge pin slots so as to maintain good break angles on the strings. I did this on an FG-140 and although I did it carefully and didn't remove more wood than was absolutely necessary, it bothered me to cut into the wood at all. Although it did correct the break angle problem, after I had lowered the saddle. Thankfully, aside from a new set of vintage-looking tuners to replace the old mangled up tuners and trimming down a few of the higher frets that buzzed after I lowered the strings, the FG-140 didn't a bridge shave.

Since the FG-110 might benefit enough from a bridge shave, etc. and be fine for years to come, I'm probably going to hold off on a neck reset. But it's good to know it's a possibility and I'm definitely going to try to do one, soon.

As it happens, this morning after a guy came over to buy a guitar I had on craigslist, a few minutes after he left, FedEx showed up in the driveway with an FG-75 red label that seriously needs a neck reset! A bridge shave just isn't gonna cut it on that one. Suffice it to say, I've gotten the vintage guitar rehab habit really bad! This will be my 4th and I see no end in sight! :-) I'm having fun and learning, which is a beautiful thing!


P.S. I checked the string heights at the nut. While they look OK, I saw a chart online that shows that you should have only enough material above the bottom of the string in the slot to come up a little over half the diameter of the string..so that the string sits high, rather than deep in the groove. All my old Yamaha's have deeper slots than the chart recommends, but I don't notice any "sitar" twang-y-ness or anything like that.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again!

[rumble]

Seems that your on a clear track to rehabbing some nice old Red Label Yamaha’s. Two tricks I’ve learned for ease of gaging action is to use a .74mm pick set between the top of 1st fret and bottom of string for my preferred nut action at the first fret. It should just be able to go under with very little resistance ,fret size may vary. The other is using a crisp new $1 bill folded in half as a make shift feeler gage at 7th fret ,placed between fret and bottom of string, for a low .08in or .23mm clearance but first capo at first fret and depress E6 @13FRET. This gives a moderately lower no buzzy playability more often than not. Hope this helps.

I’m another dedicated older Yamaha Esp.. RED-LABEL and others guitar hunter/rehabber

[TNO]

Just from my limited experience I'd say the 300-series tend to have better neck angles.

[Wade Hampton]

After Warddix wrote:

Originally Posted by warddix

I have the FG110 same guitar, same problem (I think), same great tone. Add in 40 plus years of sentimental value. What does the group think of the “bridge doctors” from JLD? I’m thinking if I can drop some of the belly from the top, it might be more playable.

Rumble replied:

Originally Posted by rumble

I’ve put two JLD bridge doc’s on two older FG’S, a 300 and a 500. And both guitars benefited both in tone and action. I did shave both the bridge and saddle as well. Far less expensive than a neck reset. There was no noticeable volume change and the special something improved .

Personally, I think you have nothing to lose by trying a JLD Bridge Doctor. They're fairly inexpensive, fairly easy to install, and you'll either like the results or you won't. So I agree you should try it.

That said, my own single attempt to correct a similar problem with a Bridge Doctor on an inexpensive but great-sounding Asian-made guitar resulted in HORRIBLE tone: after the JLD was installed in the guitar, the instrument basically sounded like some giant mosquito grown to gargantuan size by exposure to nuclear waste in a 1950's horror movie.

˙˙˙

So my guitar repairman yanked it out two or three weeks later, after I'd bravely tried to tolerate the hideous nasal tone it gave the guitar. Go ahead and try a Bridge Doctor, but there are no guarantees that it'll correct the problem or give you a tone that you like. It might, but then again it might not. Results can and do vary.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[jdk3d]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

After Warddix wrote:



Rumble replied:



Personally, I think you have nothing to lose by trying a JLD Bridge Doctor. They're fairly inexpensive, fairly easy to install, and you'll either like the results or you won't. So I agree you should try it.

That said, my own single attempt to correct a similar problem with a Bridge Doctor on an inexpensive but great-sounding Asian-made guitar resulted in HORRIBLE tone: after the JLD was installed in the guitar, the instrument basically sounded like some giant mosquito grown to gargantuan size by exposure to nuclear waste in a 1950's horror movie.

˙˙˙

So my guitar repairman yanked it out two or three weeks later, after I'd bravely tried to tolerate the hideous nasal tone it gave the guitar. Go ahead and try a Bridge Doctor, but there are no guarantees that it'll correct the problem or give you a tone that you like. It might, but then again it might not. Results can and do vary.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

Thanks,

Since I've already purchased one, I suppose I have nothing to lose by trying it. And I can always take it out if I get the mutant mosquito tone! ;-)

[jdk3d]

Originally Posted by rumble

Seems that your on a clear track to rehabbing some nice old Red Label Yamaha’s. Two tricks I’ve learned for ease of gaging action is to use a .74mm pick set between the top of 1st fret and bottom of string for my preferred nut action at the first fret. It should just be able to go under with very little resistance ,fret size may vary. The other is using a crisp new $1 bill folded in half as a make shift feeler gage at 7th fret ,placed between fret and bottom of string, for a low .08in or .23mm clearance but first capo at first fret and depress E6 @13FRET. This gives a moderately lower no buzzy playability more often than not. Hope this helps.

I’m another dedicated older Yamaha Esp.. RED-LABEL and others guitar hunter/rehabber

Thanks I'll give those tips a try!

[jdk3d]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

I have several old Yamahas, including a FG-110 like yours. I've done neck resets on a couple. The rumor that Yamaha used epoxy instead of wood glue is false. You can take the neck off the same way as any other guitar. They did use a lot of glue, so it may take a bit longer for the heat/steam to do its job.

I'm interested in learning how to do a neck reset on another Yamaha, an FG-75 with a neck angle so severe, it can't be compensated for by lowering the bridge or any of the other less invasive methods. Is there a particular guide, video or tutorial that you might recommend?

Thanks,
Jesse

[vindibona1]

I havent read all the replies, but lowering the saddle or even action too much can cause the guitar to lose its mojo. I had that happen with an Alvarez Yairi. I got the action where I wanted it, but didn't like the sound, replaced the saddle back to the original height. Mojo restored. The other thing you have to consider when you lower a saddle it the break angle. I'm not sure on the recommended minimum angle is, but I know that can come into play.