MiSi Pickup problem

benderman57 · #1 01-20-2019, 07:04 AM

Just picked up in trade from the classifieds here a Blackbird Lucky 13 from 2014 that has the MiSi pickup system. It sounds pretty good when it works but it has an issue and I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas.

Not sure if this is the Baggs element or a Fishman as I've not pulled the saddle yet,

Pretty easy to charge and then plug & play so not a lot to go wrong there. After the first charge when I plugged it in it made sound but very muffled & buzzy with no real high end. It has a Volume & Tone wheel which work but the tone wheel made no difference in the high end other than rolling off even more. Not a useable sound at all.

Did a little digging here and on their site and decided to charge it longer than the said 60 seconds. After like 4 minute charge it still sounded the same. I then loosened a few strings and pushed around on the saddle. Plugged back in and voila pickup was working correctly with normal high end and all wheels worked as the should. Played it several more times that day but only for a few minutes at a time. Worked fine every time and I was pleased. Typical undersaddle tone that's maybe has a little less quack. The guitar will be staying at my trio's practice space and getting plugged into a Fishman Mini.

Took it a few days later to practice, plugged in and it worked great for around 15 minutes and then the muffled sound reared it's ugly head once again. Tried plugging and unplugging an no difference. Sat it down for around 5 minutes and used my 12 sting. plugged it back in after it had sat that time unplugged and it sounded good again.

I don't really think messing with the saddle made the difference as I really did not do much. There is no hum like bad ground or bad fit on the saddle. The string separation is really good even when the tone is muffled.

I'm scratching me head now! Does not seem like a contact issue with the endjack. Always works just Bad sound or Good sound?

I sent MiSi a message through there website on Friday but have not heard a reply yet. I'm not dogging them as it's the weekend and hopefully I'll hear something from them.

Anybody have an ideas?

jonfields45 · #2 01-20-2019, 07:17 AM

I would not expect the charge time to make any difference. It is a very simple circuit (to look at the circuit board) and can't be anything more than a zener diode (to drop the 9 volt power supply to the 5.5 volt rating of the super capacitor) in series with a regular diode (to keep it from discharging into the short of a TS guitar cable) and maybe a current limiting resistor. There is only one 3 terminal device on the board which is likely a single MOSFET. This is the absolute picture of simple. If it works at all ever, then the preamp board is likely fine.

I would suspect the UST. If it is a Matrix, then the shield is damaged. If it is a Element, then it is shorting where it is bent leaving the saddle slot. Replacing the UST might not be easy, at least for the Element version, as it is soldered to the PCB under the super capacitor (which they are using as a shield, in addition to a power source). I am guessing from the failure mode that you have an intermittent shorting Element.

This is the second thread started in the last few months about Mi-Si (transducer) problems in Blackbirds. I've installed half a dozen Mi-Si's over the years and never had an issue.

guitaniac · #3 01-20-2019, 07:40 AM

The only problem I've had with the MiSi preamp is that I had one which couldn't make it through a four hour gig. It had to be recharged after three hours or so.

Considering how you first corrected the problem, I'd be sure the saddle is seated properly in the saddle slot. Sometimes the saddle is a little too tight in the slot and isn't seated properly. This must be a common problem as pickup guru Rick Turner used to advise players to push backwards (away from the neck) and downwards on each end of the saddle to be sure its seated properly on the pickup.

If the saddle is too tight to pull out with your fingers, its too tight and may be binding in the slot. According to Mr. Turner, the saddle should be snug enough in the slot that it won't fall out when you turn the guitar upside down, yet loose enough to pull out with your fingers. If you need needle nose pliers to pull it out of the slot, you should sand it to make it a slight bit narrower.

benderman57 · #4 01-20-2019, 08:23 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. It seems I need to look at the saddle as the culprit. I'll dig into this and report back.

benderman57 · #5 01-21-2019, 06:48 AM

I took off the strings yesterday and fooled around with the saddle. The saddle was not too tight in the slot as you could full it out with your finger and thumb with little to no resistance.

I inspected the saddle and to the eye nothing appears broken. Put the saddle back in and tuned back up. Went ahead and charged the MiSi preamp again. Plugged it in. Has plenty of volume, string balance it really great, better than a lot I've had or played,but again no high end to speak of. Muffled or blanket over the speaker is the best was to describe it. Notes are also a little fuzzy. If you turn the wheels the volume works as should and the tone wheel takes the muffled tone and does appear to work as it get super muffled when roll down.

Could very well be the element I guess, no real way to tell unless I just replaced the element (It is the Fishman version and not the braided Baggs Element) If I'm gonna go to that trouble I'll probably just replace the whole system probably with just a Matrix Infinity system. Having a battery inside the guitar does not bother me. Since this has the side port I may just try to stick a battery bag to the side of the port. Out of the way but not visible and I believe you would be able to to reach in and un-velcro the bag, pull it through the sound port to test and or replace.

A shame really as I just need a simple amplified sound for practice and when working correctly this fit the bill very well. I may wait to hear from MiSi to see if they have any thoughts before I rip it out or I may just go ahead and get it out of there.

Thanks for the help & suggestions!

guitaniac · #6 01-21-2019, 07:03 AM

Sorry to learn it wasn't something simple and easy to fix.

Here's a bargain Matrix Infinity system, if that's what you want.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fishman-Mat...5.c10#viTabs_0

Don't forget to keep your current Fishman transducer for back-up. The transducer alone is pretty pricey.

benderman57 · #7 01-21-2019, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Sorry to learn it wasn't something simple and easy to fix.

Here's a bargain Matrix Infinity system, if that's what you want.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fishman-Mat...5.c10#viTabs_0

Don't forget to keep your current Fishman transducer for back-up. The transducer alone is pretty pricey.

Thanks for the link! That's a great price on new for sure.

guitaniac · #8 01-21-2019, 07:11 AM

You're most welcome. Better luck with the new rig.

benderman57 · #9 01-21-2019, 07:17 AM

Went ahead & grabbed that one at that price so thanks!

I know what you are saying about the Element price. One of the reasons I would just replace the whole system is I'd be into around $60 for a new element (could probably find a used one cheaper but don't want to go that route) and not totally sure that would fix this problem.

The guitar is already prepped for this kind of system so a swap other than mounting it and placing the battery bag should be a quick fix.

Thanks again!

jonfields45 · #10 01-21-2019, 07:24 AM

Since the Matrix UST is installed from the top (instead of from inside the guitar like an Element), it can't be soldered to the Mi-Si preamp in a way that is not user serviceable (since it was soldered at installation). The UST is replaceable. I see them for as little as $50 on eBay.

However, I would first check to see if Blackbird drilled the saddle on a 45 degree angle for an Element and then forced a Matrix into the slot. It could be the wire out of the back of the Matrix UST being bent off of 90 degrees that is causing the UST to go intermittent. Buying another Matrix (UST only or whole new system) without fixing the drill job will likely lead down the same path. Blackbird switched from the Element UST to the Matrix UST at some point in their production.

benderman57 · #11 01-21-2019, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Since the Matrix UST is installed from the top (instead of from inside the guitar like an Element), it can't be soldered to the Mi-Si preamp in a way that is not user serviceable (since it was soldered at installation). The UST is replaceable. I see them for as little as $50 on eBay.

However, I would first check to see if Blackbird drilled the saddle on a 45 degree angle for an Element and then forced a Matrix into the slot. It could be the wire out of the back of the Matrix UST being bent off of 90 degrees that is causing the UST to go intermittent. Buying another Matrix (UST only or whole new system) without fixing the drill job will likely lead down the same path. Blackbird switched from the Element UST to the Matrix UST at some point in their production.

Makes sense!

Thanks for the tip. I will check into this when I take out the element.

guitaniac · #12 01-21-2019, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Since the Matrix UST is installed from the top (instead of from inside the guitar like an Element), it can't be soldered to the Mi-Si preamp in a way that is not user serviceable (since it was soldered at installation). The UST is replaceable. I see them for as little as $50 on eBay.

However, I would first check to see if Blackbird drilled the saddle on a 45 degree angle for an Element and then forced a Matrix into the slot. It could be the wire out of the back of the Matrix UST being bent off of 90 degrees that is causing the UST to go intermittent. Buying another Matrix (UST only or whole new system) without fixing the drill job will likely lead down the same path. Blackbird switched from the Element UST to the Matrix UST at some point in their production.

I wonder why the change from Element to Matrix. Its possible they believe what many folks on the AGF have claimed - that the Matrix transducer has less impact on the guitar's unplugged tone than the Element transducer has.

In any event, if the hole turns out to be drilled at a 45 degree angle it would probably be best to switch to a pickup system which is intended to be used with a slanted access hole. I don't think drilling a second hole is a great idea. I did that with a Taylor 314c and I suspect it weakened the amplified response of the low 'E' string a bit.

If a batttery/batteries aren't objectionable, the Duncan Wavelength is a popular system that incorporates the Baggs Element transducer. (It uses two AA batteries and a voltage multiplier to provide extra headroom.)

jonfields45 · #13 01-21-2019, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I wonder why the change from Element to Matrix. Its possible they believe what many folks on the AGF have claimed - that the Matrix transducer has less impact on the guitar's unplugged tone than the Element transducer has.

In any event, if the hole turns out to be drilled at a 45 degree angle it would probably be best to switch to a pickup system which is intended to be used with a slanted access hole. I don't think drilling a second hole is a great idea. I did that with a Taylor 314c and I suspect it weakened the amplified response of the low 'E' string a bit.

If a batttery/batteries aren't objectionable, the Duncan Wavelength is a popular system that incorporates the Baggs Element transducer. (It uses two AA batteries and a voltage multiplier to provide extra headroom.)

In my opinion I've never heard a change after installing a UST. Since both the Element and the Matrix are made from likely the same polymer piezo material I consider the AGF chatter in favor of the Matrix mostly the power of suggestion given the Matrix's brittle foil wrapped rectangular packaging.

That said, if I was selling $3K guitars I would choose the Matrix for the obvious reason that marketing is easier when you avoid triggering negative opinions. However, Gibson and MacPherson don't seem to have attended the same business classes as me :~). I suspect that since the Element is soldered in place on the preamp, installed from inside, and is physically robust compared to a Matrix gives the advantage to the Element.

Probably just another case of a Matrix UST going flakey and not likely an incorrectly drilled hole, but still important to check first...

benderman57 · #14 01-21-2019, 11:17 AM

Well in talking with the original owner he claims he did not have any issue with the pickup and I believe that to be true. I was thinking something in shipping of the guitar to me got something broken or loose. Still may be the case but I doubt I ever will really know.

I will inspect the hole in the base of the saddle and I'm sure I can come up with something that will work if that seems to be an issue. I've installed a good many various UST in all my years I just had no experience with the MiSi products so I wanted to see there were known issues with the preamp doing this or failing.

I knew they had switched out from using the Baggs to the Matrix but I've never seen a reason why. Maybe they liked the results better?

I did hear back from then just now. Here is their reply.

Hello Jim,

Sorry to hear you are having trouble with Blackbird instrument.

The symptoms you described sound very unusual. There is a chance something went wrong with preamp circuit but it also may be caused by faulty pickup.

This system is out of warranty but we can take a look at it if you ship it to our office.

Best regards,

Mikhail Ioffe

I realized that it would not be a warranty fix and I would not pay to ship the guitar to San Fran from the east coast as it would end up costing more than the $100 I just paid for a Matrix Infinity system. At least they answered me and were willing to work on it. I just don't think it makes sense for me to do that since I can replace the pickup myself.

Since I have to remove this pickup anyway I will try some things with it first to see if I can detect what the problem might be and try to see if it's fixable. If so I can just hold on the Matrix I purchased for the future or turn it back over at some point.

Again thanks for chiming in with help & suggestions.

guitaniac · #15 01-21-2019, 02:44 PM

Jon,

I certainly agree that the Element is more durable than the Matrix. The Matrix shielding is much more easily damaged, and I've dealt with several when buying used guitars off the internet.

I have no personal opinion as to whether the Element or Matrix is more compromising to a guitar's unplugged tone. I definitely believe, however, that unplugged tone and sustain improves when the UST is removed entirely. I noticed that when trying out a mag pickup in my Taylor.

Jim,

If you find out what the problem is with that pickup system, please let us know. I find it hard to believe that the Blackbird folks would try to bend the Matrix lead down through a slanted hole, but I'm definitely curious to know about it if that is actually the case.