Ancient Glacial Sitka Spruce soundboards (~2750 yrs old)

[invguy921]

Originally Posted by theEdwinson

Can you imagine what this ancient glacial Sitka would look like with Snakewood back and sides, and Lignum Vitae bindings and trim?
Haha. Not kidding! I don't have to imagine it; I've seen it! And it's a BEAUTIFUL play of color and figure! More soon on that...

I like the Snakewood...with ANY top wood. Personally I wouldn't be drawn to the ancient sitka because it isn't visually what I like, despite it's draw from a "I own one and nobody else does" perspective. But that's just me.

I think a person building guitars to sell would need to think about this from one of two perspectives...1) to build guitars which are amazing with more broad market appeal, or 2) to build a widely talked about show piece. If I were building a guitar to sell and make money, I think I'd build the Snakewood with any other wood to capture the value of the snakewood, and I'd build the Ancient Sitka with anything else to capture the value of it. I wouldn't combine the two. If all I wanted to do was create a showpiece, I'd combine the two with the idea of losing part of my market (narrowing my outreach) to people who don't like one or the other. Potentially the showpiece would garner a larger price, albiet it might have less followers.

...my two cents worth far less I'm sure. In the opinion of many I'm probably "missing it" totally. lol

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by invguy921

I like the Snakewood...with ANY top wood. Personally I wouldn't be drawn to the ancient sitka because it isn't visually what I like, despite it's draw from a "I own one and nobody else does" perspective. But that's just me.

I think a person building guitars to sell would need to think about this from one of two perspectives...1) to build guitars which are amazing with more broad market appeal, or 2) to build a widely talked about show piece. If I were building a guitar to sell and make money, I think I'd build the Snakewood with any other wood to capture the value of the snakewood, and I'd build the Ancient Sitka with anything else to capture the value of it. I wouldn't combine the two. If all I wanted to do was create a showpiece, I'd combine the two with the idea of losing part of my market (narrowing my outreach) to people who don't like one or the other. Potentially the showpiece would garner a larger price, albiet it might have less followers.

...my two cents worth far less I'm sure. In the opinion of many I'm probably "missing it" totally. lol

I think you make excellent points. I thought I would be in the minority about the Snakewood, but the three of us that have responded all went that way. I think your points on marketing are great also, but in this particular case this is completely a commissioned build so I am not sure that value in terms of the overall market apply, but I agree with you completely on independently featuring either the ancient Sitka or the Snakewood as "The" feature on their own guitar.

I am just waiting to see what happens with the A. Sitka when sanded and finished, I can't visualize what color it will end up being?

Tom

[GaultierRedon14]

Tom,

Here are two links to completed guitars with an ancient sitka top:

http://symphontreemusic.com/slashs-d...r-ever-played/

http://www.sahlstromstringedinstrume...fvg/image_22gl


These tops don't look exactly like mine, but they give a basic idea of what to expect.
Thanks to those who shared their ideas so far!

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by GaultierRedon14

Tom,

Here are two links to completed guitars with an ancient sitka top:

http://symphontreemusic.com/slashs-d...r-ever-played/

http://www.sahlstromstringedinstrume...fvg/image_22gl


These tops don't look exactly like mine, but they give a basic idea of what to expect.
Thanks to those who shared their ideas so far!

Hey, thanks for the links, that helped a lot. They paired it with "tree" mahogany for the Slash model and the A. Sitka held it's own with that, so I second my vote for the Snakewood.....What an awesome build this will be! No pressure Steve!

[Joel Teel]

Originally Posted by GaultierRedon14

Well, you're welcome to share your opinion on which tonewood set you like better. It's fine with me.
For now, I'm sticking with this one set of the Ancient Sitka--I'm sure someone else will snap up that last set before I'd decide to buy it. It does have beautiful mineral coloring in it, though! Ultimately, I'm a player, not a collector, and one is enough for me!
I think I'm leaning towards the Bois de Rose. I think it will work well--it will be dark and understated since it has perfect straight grain and fairly even coloring. That will match well with the dark and striking appearance of the ancient Sitka. The Snakewood might be fighting for attention since it is such a boldly-patterned, exotic-looking wood, although it would be quite fine. I think the Snakewood would make it's own special guitar. Pairing it with the Ancient Sitka is almost too over-the-top exotic for it's own good! But of course, I may very well end up choosing it anyways! I'm just rambling here...
With the Bois de Rose, I can use either Lignum Vitae for the bindings and bevels, or also use Bois de Rose since I have a lot of extra pieces of it. I'm rooting for the Lignum, because I think it is probably the coolest-looking wood there is. Aside from being the hardest/densest wood in the world, it has a naturally "aged" or "ancient" look, and would complement the ancient Sitka top very nicely.
Tonally, either set should work well. Steve just raved about the tap tone of the Bois de Rose set when I sent it to him--easily comparable to a good Brazilian tap. He also said the Snakewood set has an outstanding tap tone--endless sustain, deep "subsonic" resonance. Well, I shouldn't speak for him--he can chime in if he'd like with his impressions. What were your impressions, Wood Knot? Do you have any pictures to post?? I'd love to see them!

GR14...
I'd like to say that, even though Steve is an excellent photographer, these photos don't do either combination the justice which they deserve. The subtleties in the visual flow of color (and the way in which they look when light reflects off of them at different angles) just can't be captured in a photograph. Nevertheless, I will again state that you will not be disappointed with either combination.

I said earlier that, after seeing them both at Steve's shop, I was leaning (ever-so-slightly) to one of the combinations . I must also say that, those subtle qualities which swayed me in person are not apparent in these photographs. There are many more subtle colors that you see in person, which aren't totally captured in the photos.

[GaultierRedon14]

Wood Knot,

Are you talking about the Snakewood? That's what I'm assuming! Anyways, here's where I stand right now. I lean towards the Bois de Rose because I already have a pretty clear idea of how everything else falls into place if I use it--purflings, bridge wood, fretboard wood, etc., and looking at it holistically, I like the whole, big picture I have in my mind with the Bois de Rose.
With the Snakewood, I don't have a clear idea of what I'd use for bridge and fretboard, other details.
Besides, I own these sets, and I expect I'll eventually have a guitar built with both sets, regardless of which set I use with the sitka top. I would need to think through all the details with the Snakewood some more to get a complete vision of what the final result would be.
Wood Knot, what did you think of the tap tone/stiffness of my set of sitka? Is it similar/indistinguishable from your set(s)? And the Bois de Rose and Snakewood? Thanks!

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts to consider when deciding:

Bois de Rose:
- Although dense, lighter in weight than Snakewood
- It will darken by oxidation over time
- Visually will work with both lighter hued and solid or patterned bindings
- Cites II listed

Snakewood:
- Heavier in weight than Bois de Rose
- It will darken over time and the patterning will get less distinct
- A very hard and brittle wood that might be difficult to create a cutaway (may be moot point)
- Visually will work with both lighter or darker hued and solid bindings (remember it will darken)
- Not Cites listed

[GaultierRedon14]

Thanks for the info.

Just for consideration, here is a Mark Blanchard guitar in Bois de Rose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWj6-QIBuEg

It was between 6-7 years old at the time of this video. To my discerning eye, it has not oxidized in the least during those years.
My set of Bois de Rose has been cut and seasoning for a decade or so at this point, according to the seller. It has little evidence of serious oxidation darkening, maybe a little at the edges. Once it is under finish, it seems unlikely to me that it will darken considerably, at least not anytime soon, if the Blanchard example is any indicator. I've read the info on the wood database website, and I think the claims made there about Bois de Rose all turning black at a relatively rapid pace are a bit exaggerated based on the actual pieces I've had. Even so, I don't mind if it darkens, it will still work with the theme of the guitar!
I'm shying away from lighter colored bindings because we're using bevels, and light-colored bevels (i.e. maple) just don't look good, in my opinion.
Yes, the Snakewood is about as dense and heavy as anything out there that could be used for back and sides on a guitar, it is relatively low damping and this particular set has great tap tone and sustain, as does the Bois de Rose, according to Steve. I don't mind a relatively heavy guitar, although I suppose it's not ideal.

[iim7V7IM7]

Keep in mind that it is not uncommon for wood to be sold under a common name such as "Bois de Rose" when in fact different samples used in guitars may be a different actual species (not all D. maritima) . There are a variety of dalbergia species of rosewoods coming out of Madagascar that can all look quite similar. I don't think that it is exaggeration but I suspect the heterogeneity in darkening is due to different species all being called a single common name (Bois de Rose) when in fact they are likely different species of rosewoods.

Yours may not darken, but some of it does. There are indeed examples where it does darken:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=236237

"Like Padauk, when freshly cut it is a completely different color than when it oxidizes. Originally it is a very bright magenta and then (for the pieces I prefer anyway) it darkens quickly until it looks almost black with reddish highlights. I think of it as the color of old grimy regular rosewood FB's, and I like that a lot."

- Burton LeGeyt

I have used it for FB & bridges but have never seen any guitar sized sets that were 100% quartered. When freshly milled it is dark purple but oxidizes to almost a dark reddish black color over time.

- Tim McKnight

Aesthetically, I think the ash color of the spruce will look best against the deep reddish, purple hues of the Bois de Rose. The warm reddish brown hues of the Snakewood don't integrate quite as well with the color of the spruce in my opinion.

I look forward to watching it come to life whatever you decide.

Originally Posted by GaultierRedon14

Thanks for the info.

Just for consideration, here is a Mark Blanchard guitar in Bois de Rose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWj6-QIBuEg

It was between 6-7 years old at the time of this video. To my discerning eye, it has not oxidized in the least during those years.
My set of Bois de Rose has been cut and seasoning for a decade or so at this point, according to the seller. It has little evidence of serious oxidation darkening, maybe a little at the edges. Once it is under finish, it seems unlikely to me that it will darken considerably, at least not anytime soon, if the Blanchard example is any indicator. I've read the info on the wood database website, and I think the claims made there about Bois de Rose all turning black at a relatively rapid pace are a bit exaggerated based on the actual pieces I've had. Even so, I don't mind if it darkens, it will still work with the theme of the guitar!
I'm shying away from lighter colored bindings because we're using bevels, and light-colored bevels (i.e. maple) just don't look good, in my opinion.
Yes, the Snakewood is about as dense and heavy as anything out there that could be used for back and sides on a guitar, it is relatively low damping and this particular set has great tap tone and sustain, as does the Bois de Rose, according to Steve. I don't mind a relatively heavy guitar, although I suppose it's not ideal.

[GaultierRedon14]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...5279350&type=3

Here is another build with a set of the Ancient Sitka, by JOI. The same luthier who built the guitar of Ancient Sitka and "The Tree" Mahogany. Paired with a set of ebony back and sides, should be a nice combination! I prefer a low damping back/sides tonewood, and I believe this type of ebony has higher damping characteristics, although I'm sure it'll make a great sounding guitar.

[GaultierRedon14]

Here is a quote from David Orf in a previous AGF thread in 2011, shedding more light on the unique characteristics of Bois de Rose (d. maritima):

Jeff--I have built 2 guitars with the "true" Bois de Rose (Dalbergia Maritima). It is the rarest of all the rosewoods, Brazilian included. It is probably one of the finest tonewoods I have experienced--incredible taptone. I would have to say that it is also one of the most beautiful of all the rosewood species as well. It is one of my top two favorites. I am currently commissioning 2 more guitars with this. I am always looking for it, but it is extremely difficult to find the "Maritima." I have seen many call Dalbergia Baronii (another Madagascar rosewood) Bois de Rose. In fact the only similarity between the two is their shared genus: Dalbergia. Both Maritima and Baronii are fabulous tonewoods, but in MHO the Maritima is aesthetically and sonincally more desireable. Maritima is easily identified--it has rich wine--burgandy, and sometimes pink and black coloration--it rarely has any brown or orange coloration like you see in the Baronii variety. The two that we have built were simply incredible and rare in tone--I give this wood my highest recommendation. David Orf/ Hearts' Home Acoustics

These comments seem to reflect the impression Steve had with my set (I've never handled it myself--it was sent directly to him after I purchased it). The tap tone was one of the more remarkable traits, in Steve's opinion. Similar to the quote above. I remember reading this quote about a year ago, and realized that this wood might be, for me, the perfect combination of refined beauty and tone. I was thrilled when I found this set of genuine d. maritima available for sale.

[theEdwinson]

Everything in my experience points to this particular set of rosewood as being the genuine article, Dalbergia maritima. I'm not a PhD wood taxonomy specialist, but it looks, sounds, and smells like the real thing. (I scuff-sanded it with 220 grit when it arrived, and it gives off a heavenly rosewood scent.) I also have some fingerboards here, of the same material that Gaultier owns, indisputably Bois de Rose (D. maritima) and they are unmistakably the SAME wood.

Back in the early 2000s, I bought a few fingerboards and bridge blanks of D. maritima, and they had all the same characteristics as Gaultier's guitar set. I don't know why there is suddenly a controversy about it.
IN ANY CASE: this set of wood has mind-blowing sonic properties. The tap tone is deep, loud, and sustaining- sort a TONNNGGG-NNGG-NNgg-nngg sound. I've tapped on a lot of woods in fifteen years, and it doesn't get any better than this. And to my eye, it has a rare, sumptuous beauty as well.
I think every set of wood should be judged on its own merits, not on hyperbole; and this one is just simply amazing.
My $0.02.

[kwerry]

Here is what I did with an admittedly smaller and less top of Ancient Sitka, Zircote back & sides... I have enough left for a Uke..

I'm an amateur builder so I have limited reference to compare this to. It felt like it was a hardwood top and has good sustain.

http://klwstrings.blogspot.ca/2015/03/done.html

KLW

[GaultierRedon14]

Nice tenor--the detailing is great!

Well, I have *pretty much* decided to pair the Ancient Sitka with d. maritima back and sides. The build will commence around January. Steve or I will start a new thread once he has some pictures to show.
Thank you to everyone who offered their comments!

[Nemoman]

Awesome--can't wait to see what you and Steve come up with on this one!